Grant Ulysses S. Grant's persistent negative press

[BDK1066]

Which specific laws did they break if this is true?

A person doesn't have to break laws to be corrupt and reflect poorly on their connections. *Edited*

 

[cash]

Grant created some of his own bad press.
Remember his infamous General Order No. 11, which expelled all Jews from Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi, issued at Memphis, on Dec. 17, 1862
Repeat expelled all Jews.
Lincoln had to order him to rescind it.
Check out When General Grant Expelled the Jews 2016 by Jonathan D. Sarna

His actions make him seem more like a KKK supporter than a KKK suppressor.

If one actually checks out Sarna's book, one is disabused of that opinion. Sarna details the many ways Grant spent the rest of his life atoning for that order.

 

[cash]

A person doesn't have to break laws to be corrupt and reflect poorly on their connections.
*Edited*

Leave modern politics out of it. Again, which specific law did they break, if that is true? Or was what they did completely legal? If completely legal, then there are no "bad connections" with his in-laws regarding cotton.

 

[Canadian]

Grant, along with Hamilton Fish, had a stellar record when it came to settling matters peacefully with other nations. Grant was one of several post-Civil War presidents - along with Hayes, Garfield and Arthur - who had served in the Civil War and had probably seen too much horror to want to start another war. They seem a remarkably peaceful lot compared to their 20th century counterparts.

McKinley seems to be the outlier, a Civil War veteran who got into the Spanish-American war. He may have been nudged into it by some of his younger cabinet members. Perhaps his Secretary of the Navy, Theodore Roosevelt, who was young enough during the Civil War that he could believe war would test a man's courage, but only briefly.

 

[BDK1066]

If one actually checks out Sarna's book, one is disabused of that opinion. Sarna details the many ways Grant spent the rest of his life atoning for that order.

Your words "Grant spent the rest of his life atoning for that order."
If he spent the rest of his life atoning for that order, he must have done something that needed to be atoned.

 

[cash]

Your words "Grant spent the rest of his life atoning for that order."
If he spent the rest of his life atoning for that order, he must have done something that needed to be atoned.

And it makes him the opposite of a KKK supporter. Everyone makes mistakes. Grant realized his mistake and made up for it.

 

[BDK1066]

And it makes him the opposite of a KKK supporter.

And it makes him the opposite of a KKK supporter. Everyone makes mistakes. Grant realized his mistake and made up for it.

How is expelling all Jews from 3 states not like the KKK.
Grant's atonement was a political expedient.

 

[cash]

How is expelling all Jews from 3 states not like the KKK.
Grant's atonement was a political expedient.

If, as you implied, you read Sarna's book, then you would know. Grant's atonement was genuine. The claim it was mere political expedient is a phony claim with no validity.

 

[Canadian]

And it makes him the opposite of a KKK supporter. Everyone makes mistakes. Grant realized his mistake and made up for it.

I agree. He seemed to learn from his mistakes - mostly. Money being the big exception.

 

[diane]

Sherman feared for Grant when he decided to get into politics. Coming from a political family he knew what Washington DC held for somebody not too well acquainted with it. That's why he refused to become involved in it and thought four years in Sing-Sing would make him a better man than four years in Washington! I tend to believe Grant was naive about civilian politics - it wasn't like politics in the military, which he was used to. The corruption in his administration was inherited by him, and by Lincoln, and by just about every president before him - it's not easy to throw the alligators out of the bayou with almost no help, and they are certainly going to splatter you with their mud. His accomplishments were notable in spite of all this - there was more progress in the country under his leadership than many are willing to acknowledge. As Canadian pointed out, Grant was more successful abroad than at home - he did keep the nation out of trouble. He was a gifted diplomat and statesman, which is not usually said of him. This country has a habit of electing victorious generals to the presidency and it's not always where that victorious general can be of best service to the nation. Grant was not a politician like Lincoln, who would have been the one to make some headway on the alligators, but he was a very good peacemaker.

 

[Good Soldier Shweik]

Orders #11 and Jessie Grant's attempt at cotton trading with confederates are part and parcel of the same sad sick story.

Grant and Sherman both believed that trading confederate cotton was evil and they both fought against it. the profits from the trade were too enormous to be entirely stamped out. The war Department granted licences which restricted the trade to certain hands which made the profits of holding a licence extremely remunerative.

Jessie tried to use his connections to get a licence. Ulysses prevented him from getting one. Jessie got together with a jewish merchant to go together with the merchant's licence. Jessie came down to Memphis to trade on Ulysses' nam. Ulysses went ballistic. Ulysses banned all jewish traders traders, where he would have prefered to ban his father totally.

the order caused a stink all over and Lincoln rescinded the order instantly. Grant was called before and got a thorough slating.

Julia, in her memoirs said that Ulysses told her that it was horribly dishonorable mistake which he regretted deeply. Jessie didn't raise a bigot, and there was nothing in his career after this that suggested he had anything to do with anti jewish thought after this.

Edited.

 

[cash]

Orders #11 and Jessie Grant's attempt at cotton trading with confederates are part and parcel of the same sad sick story.

Grant and Sherman both believed that trading confederate cotton was evil and they both fought against it. the profits from the trade were too enormous to be entirely stamped out. The war Department granted licences which restricted the trade to certain hands which made the profits of holding a licence extremely remunerative.

Jessie tried to use his connections to get a licence. Ulysses prevented him from getting one. Jessie got together with a jewish merchant to go together with the merchant's licence. Jessie came down to Memphis to trade on Ulysses' nam. Ulysses went ballistic. Ulysses banned all jewish traders traders, where he would have prefered to ban his father totally.

the order caused a stink all over and Lincoln rescinded the order instantly. Grant was called before and got a thorough slating.

Julia, in her memoirs said that Ulysses told her that it was horribly dishonorable mistake which he regretted deeply. Jessie didn't raise a bigot, and there was nothing in his career after this that suggested he had anything to do with anti jewish thought after this.

It is amusing that two trolls bring both sides of the story up at the same time

So just to be clear, Jesse stayed within the law? It wasn't Grant's in-laws who were trading cotton?

 

[wausaubob]

I agree. He seemed to learn from his mistakes - mostly. Money being the big exception.

An instructive example of what can happen when an older person trusts someone who is not acting in good faith, after that older person is not as sharp as they once were. A small amount of inattentiveness can be devastating, especially if that person has enemies in the investment community.

 

[wausaubob]

Orders #11 and Jessie Grant's attempt at cotton trading with confederates are part and parcel of the same sad sick story.

Grant and Sherman both believed that trading confederate cotton was evil and they both fought against it. the profits from the trade were too enormous to be entirely stamped out. The war Department granted licences which restricted the trade to certain hands which made the profits of holding a licence extremely remunerative.

Jessie tried to use his connections to get a licence. Ulysses prevented him from getting one. Jessie got together with a jewish merchant to go together with the merchant's licence. Jessie came down to Memphis to trade on Ulysses' nam. Ulysses went ballistic. Ulysses banned all jewish traders traders, where he would have prefered to ban his father totally.

the order caused a stink all over and Lincoln rescinded the order instantly. Grant was called before and got a thorough slating.

Julia, in her memoirs said that Ulysses told her that it was horribly dishonorable mistake which he regretted deeply. Jessie didn't raise a bigot, and there was nothing in his career after this that suggested he had anything to do with anti jewish thought after this.

It is amusing that two trolls bring both sides of the story up at the same time

Cotton trading was not illegal. The Treasury Dept. was handing out licenses for influential friends.

 

[WJC]

If he spent the rest of his life atoning for that order, he must have done something that needed to be atoned.

Certainly, Grant felt what he did was wrong. Recognizing one's errors and doing what one can to make amends is a most admirable trait.

 

[GrantCottage1885]

I get the distinct feeling that if Grant had a choice between the perpetuation of a peaceful and healthy Union or the integrity of his own legacy, he would choose the former.

Another thing that is rarely mentioned is President Grant's advocacy towards a properly educated electorate to maintain a healthy Union. He recognized how dangerous ignorance could be, willful or unwillful, to unity and progress when he stated...

"If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason's and Dixon's, but between patriotism and intelligence on one sight, and superstition, ambition, and ignorance on the other."

"We are a republic whereof one man is as good as another...all should be possessed of education and intelligence enough to cast a vote with a right understanding of its meaning. A large association of ignorant men cannot, for any considerable period, oppose a successful resistance to tyranny and oppression from the educated few, but will inevitably sink into acquiescence to the will of intelligence, whether [the ignorant were] directed by the demagogue or by priestcraft. Hence the education of the masses becomes of the first necessity for the preservation of our institutions. They are worth preserving, because they have secured the greatest good to the greatest proportion of the population of any form of government yet devised."

Grant recognized that societal evils such as hatred, racism and others leading to division are rooted in ignorance and lies.

Any debate can be productive as long as those involved are willing to consider new or newly interpreted information with an objectively open-mind. Without proper objectiveness debate tends towards two sides continually growing more polarized (ie Grant defenders or detractors). Those choosing not to seek or accept new perspectives, context and information to form a more informed and accurate view will continue to be mired in the inaccuracies of the past and keep others in ignorance with them. It is the unwillingness to be open to adjusting ones perspective based on new or more accurately interpreted information that has led to Grant being relegated to his typical status. Revisionists such as the aforementioned Frank Scaturro, Brooks Simpson and others are swimming against the tide of mythology and persistently flawed yet popular misconceptions. Few question the popularly parroted generalities of Grant's life and career and even fewer delve into and research it further to become more informed. Popularized myths and misconceptions are like chewing gum, even when it's starting to go bland most will continue to chew it. Therefore I will choose to agree with General Sherman that "It will be a thousand years before Grant's character is fully appreciated."

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Grant the drunk butcher and corrupt president got such mileage because it fit the Lost Cause narrative. Even people who aren't/weren't Confederate sympathizers like the narrative of Lee as the heroic underdog.

None of the accusations are outright slanderous. They all contain at least some truth, which gives them more strength. There are outright lies and myths about a variety of subjects that have circulated for long periods of time.

 

[wausaubob]

"If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason's and Dixon's, but between patriotism and intelligence on one sight, and superstition, ambition, and ignorance on the other."
The Scythian bow of the truth, with which Ulysses shoots the allegorical suitors of Penelope.

 

[wausaubob]

The real Ulysses confronted the ogre of unfair criticism, evaded the siren song of narcissism, and gave up the Calypso dream of boozy retirement, and strove to create a free and united US, until the final dragon of financial corruption whipped him. Epic in any telling.

 

[Canadian]

I get the distinct feeling that if Grant had a choice between the perpetuation of a peaceful and healthy Union or the integrity of his own legacy, he would choose the former.

Another thing that is rarely mentioned is President Grant's advocacy towards a properly educated electorate to maintain a healthy Union. He recognized how dangerous ignorance could be, willful or unwillful, to unity and progress when he stated...

"If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason's and Dixon's, but between patriotism and intelligence on one sight, and superstition, ambition, and ignorance on the other."

"We are a republic whereof one man is as good as another...all should be possessed of education and intelligence enough to cast a vote with a right understanding of its meaning. A large association of ignorant men cannot, for any considerable period, oppose a successful resistance to tyranny and oppression from the educated few, but will inevitably sink into acquiescence to the will of intelligence, whether [the ignorant were] directed by the demagogue or by priestcraft. Hence the education of the masses becomes of the first necessity for the preservation of our institutions. They are worth preserving, because they have secured the greatest good to the greatest proportion of the population of any form of government yet devised."

Grant recognized that societal evils such as hatred, racism and others leading to division are rooted in ignorance and lies.

Any debate can be productive as long as those involved are willing to consider new or newly interpreted information with an objectively open-mind. Without proper objectiveness debate tends towards two sides continually growing more polarized (ie Grant defenders or detractors). Those choosing not to seek or accept new perspectives, context and information to form a more informed and accurate view will continue to be mired in the inaccuracies of the past and keep others in ignorance with them. It is the unwillingness to be open to adjusting ones perspective based on new or more accurately interpreted information that has led to Grant being relegated to his typical status. Revisionists such as the aforementioned Frank Scaturro, Brooks Simpson and others are swimming against the tide of mythology and persistently flawed yet popular misconceptions. Few question the popularly parroted generalities of Grant's life and career and even fewer delve into and research it further to become more informed. Popularized myths and misconceptions are like chewing gum, even when it's starting to go bland most will continue to chew it. Therefore I will choose to agree with General Sherman that "It will be a thousand years before Grant's character is fully appreciated."

Grant was spookily prescient about the nature of divisions in a democracy.

Thanks for the thoughtful reflections on Grant's legacy. You are also right about discussions and coming with an open mind to new information.

I hope Sherman was off by a few hundred years.