Two Infamous Guerrillas

[Patrick H]

I agree completely, it was the overriding motivation of the guerrillas,. was just responding to "In the case of Little Archie, I don't know that it was ever revenge motivated" which seems somewhat ridiculous to me considered where and when he grew up, and his having other family joining with him and the circumstances.

Archie, maybe I haven't judged your namesake fairly. I have always judged him on the basis of being perhaps the only guerrilla in Anderson's band who was more vicious than Anderson himself. I've already told you that I don't think much of him....OR of Anderson. I think Anderson became crazed with revenge and hatred after his sister was killed. Remember: William Gregg says he rode into combat frothing at the mouth! I think Little Archie did Anderson's bidding, and threw in some touches of his own. This is why I have referred to him as Anderson's little toady. We know a note was left on a scalped body attributing the scalping the Archie. That was horrific, as were the beheadings and other mutilations of dead bodies. We also know from some of the bushwhacker memoirs that Little Archie messed things up when he wheeled and charged Parke's command. Had he lured them completely into Rawlings Lane, the entire patrol probably would have been obliterated. Archie reportedly got the dressing down of his life from Anderson after that failure to follow orders, and he reportedly never forgot it.

 

[Patrick H]

It's one thing to kill an enemy to protect 'house and home', but its entirely something different to feel a need to take human body parts as trophies. If you want to defend "partisan rangers", you will find the task much easier for groups east of the Mississippi, because the comparisons with the guerilla's in Missouri, from either side, are few and far between.

I don't know about partisan rangers east of the Mississippi. My interest is in Missouri guerrillas. I will repeat again that they should be evaluated and judged as individuals. Trying to compare partisans from both sides of "the ditch" is pure silliness. For the purposes of my thread here, let's stick to the Missouri side of the ditch. Then, let's evaluate all of the guerrillas individually.

I have come down harshly on Bill Anderson and Archie Clements because I am judging them (within the framework of my readings about them) as individuals apart from the other Missouri guerrillas.

Obviously, our contributor who goes by archie's name doesn't agree with my assessment and that is fine. I appreciate his contributions. We don't have to agree about everything in order to have good discussions.

 

[Patrick H]

The Lawrence Raid, the subsequent "Great Guerrilla Hunt," and the taking of scalps all seem to indicate to me that by mid 1863, the guerrilla war in MO had taken on a new aspect, where the extremist or radicals on both sides had taken over the conduct of the war.

You just nailed it, Buddy.

 

[Patrick H]

View attachment 163426

Archie Clement (left) and supposedly Jesse James.

Nope. Not Jesse at all. Maybe Archie on the right, but I don't think so. What do you say, @archieclements?

 

[Patrick H]

View attachment 163460

As I said I do not care for this image even if it's real. It is supposedly Archie Clement in death

I know it is attributed to Archie in death, but I think there is life in those eyes. I can't accept this as a post mortem picture.

 

[Patrick H]

View attachment 163465

The general area of where Bloody Bill was killed near Orrick (Now Albany) in Ray County.

You mean "Albany...now Orrick."

 

[Patrick H]

Thank you, Missouri Fellas!

I love reading your Missouri/Kansas American Civil War threads.

A ton of useful information on a topic about the war which does not receive much notoriety.

Bloodless Bill

Thanks, Bloodless Bill!

 

[mofederal]

I didn't think he was dead either. He looks alive to me. I had trouble believing it is Archie at all, as his hair was much longer than his other images. I would like to see Hale's book on the death of Little Archie. Yes I messed up the location of Orrick/Albany. For some reason I have never been there.

 

[Patrick H]

I have no idea how I managed to miss this thread, its fascinating and I read every single post in one sitting, the photo of Rawlings Lane has to be one of the most fascinating pictures that I have seen in a while, my imagination ran wild with that photo. I hope this thread picks up again soon, thanks to everyone that posted, its been a really great read.

@Waterloo50, my friend, you are most welcome. This is the part of the war that interests me, because so much of it was fought right near where I live. For example, that haunting photo of Rawlings Lane was captured about 12 miles from where I sit. I am glad you are enjoying this. I can hardly believe all the activity on this thread in the few days that I was away! Wow!

 

[Patrick H]

To all:

Be patient and I will detail for you the circumstances of Little Archie's death in Lexington. What you (and I) have read up until now isn't necessarily what really happened. I have been in touch with local Lexington historians. Be patient. He died in December, 1866. I will post the detailed story closer to his death anniversary.

 

[diane]

Great thread! Learning a lot.

The partisans east of the Mississippi were different in several respects but in Tennessee quite a few were every bit like Anderson and others like him. (Actually I'm not sure that many were foaming at the mouth when they went to fight...!) But there were lots of gory torture sessions, people getting their heads chopped off or buried up to their necks or other really nasty stuff. Wherever the war got intensely personal, like in Missouri and Tennessee, there were some men who lost their minds. Sherman was particularly concerned about these - guys who had lost everything and had nothing to live for but killing their enemies. After the war, there was a decidedly intense effort to locate these men and it always ended badly. The Hayes brothers, for instance, had a whole company that rode off from Forrest - he ordered them shot on sight but it was Tennessee marshals that took them out a couple years after the war in a right blazing wall of gunfire. If they did a tenth of what they'd been accused of doing, it was a just end.

 

[archieclement]

Nope. Not Jesse at all. Maybe Archie on the right, but I don't think so. What do you say, @archieclements?

I don't know, theres least 2 pics of him early in the war, the most famous of which is the trio with dave pool, hes clean shaven and his face is more elongated, the pics of him later with the mustache his face is rounder and and the eyebrows look different too...........I'm never sure they are the same individual.

The problem seems twofold to me, with anyone famous or infamous like clement or the james's everyone wants to think every pic is of them, but is also compounded by jesse and archie joined when they were only 16, so guess some change is to be expected as they grew up......

That one pic I seriously doubt that is Jesse, which would naturally make me suspect the Clement claim too............if it is, archie certainly was dapper

 

[mofederal]

This is supposed to be of Archie. It was on a Missouri History site. You can decide. I like it better than the postmortem photo.

 

[archieclement]

I don't know about partisan rangers east of the Mississippi. My interest is in Missouri guerrillas. I will repeat again that they should be evaluated and judged as individuals. Trying to compare partisans from both sides of "the ditch" is pure silliness. For the purposes of my thread here, let's stick to the Missouri side of the ditch. Then, let's evaluate all of the guerrillas individually.

I have come down harshly on Bill Anderson and Archie Clements because I am judging them (within the framework of my readings about them) as individuals apart from the other Missouri guerrillas.

Obviously, our contributor who goes by archie's name doesn't agree with my assessment and that is fine. I appreciate his contributions. We don't have to agree about everything in order to have good discussions.

Guess by his logic if one wants to defend Yankees, they should stick east of the Mississippi, unless they think beheading, scalping and cutting off fingers to steal rings was normal yankee behavior...........and dry hanging people..........

 

[archieclement]

View attachment 163862

This is supposed to be of Archie. It was on a Missouri History site. You can decide. I like it better than the postmortem photo.

Not sure, but the shape of the face and eyebrows do appear it would more match the early pictures, to be an older archie

 

[Patrick H]

Guess by his logic if one wants to defend Yankees, they should stick east of the Mississippi, unless they think beheading, scalping and cutting off fingers to steal rings was normal yankee behavior...........and dry hanging people..........

?

I am talking about Bill Anderson and Archie Clements in this thread. I am not discussing, cussing, condemning, nor defending Yankees. Where do you guys get this stuff to spin and why do you spin it on threads that never intended it?

...and what is "dry hanging?" I didn't say anything about "dry hanging." I don't even know what you mean by "dry hanging".

Archie, I don't understand what you are saying here, but...as it is a response to one of my posts, I know it is directed at me.

 

[Patrick H]

Well, good grief! @Patrick H explained the death right off the bat! (And I ain't even drunk...) Patrick H, is there a question about that famous picture of dead Bloody Bill?

The only question I am aware of is whether the soldier is holding Bill by the hair to keep his head up for the camera, or whether he is holding Bill's severed head over its former torso for the camera. I don't have the definitive answer to that question. If you look closely at the photo, you can see that it works either way: Either before or after having the head severed.

 

[Patrick H]

View attachment 163467
Battle of Albany (Orrick), Mo Monument to Bloody Bill Anderson and other Guerrillas killed in the battle.

I've been to this monument and never would have found it without the help of a local guide. It's off the county road and heavily sheltered by a thick fence row of brush. You must enter onto private property up a private drive and to a pioneer cemetery and there you finally arrive at the location of this monument. I suppose everyone who lives in the area knows where to find it, but the casual monument hunter barely has a chance without help!

 

[Patrick H]

Thanks for the details. So there's no doubt that's really Anderson, then.

I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever.

 

[Patrick H]

Maybe, all things considered, but it could have been so depending. I'd thought they just threw his body somewhere and kicked some dirt over it, so it's a curious thing. This cousin must have done the work, though, judging by the picture. Well, unless it was taken before they started messing around...

Did Cole Younger actually do a funeral for Anderson many, many years later? Seems I heard that somewhere.

Younger is supposed to have finally purchased a headstone for Anderson's grave, many years after his burial. It could very well be one of those myths that spring up on the internet. The current military headstone looks new but I believe was placed several decades ago. Anderson is buried in the Mormon cemetery in Richmond. It is now a beautiful, well-tended little cemetery. It is a very significant place to the members of that church. However, in Anderson's time, I believe it was neglected and overgrown with fallen head stones, etc. I believe that is why he was buried there....as if to demonstrate that the townspeople didn't want him in the same soil with their more honored folk.