The Palmyra Massacre

[mikemelda]

Has there been any threads on the Palmyra Massacre in the forum ? It was 10 Confederate men executed over one Union man, Andrew Allsman, in Palmyra ,Missouri, in October 1862. There is a statue honoring the 10 men in front of the courthouse in Palmyra. I grew up just 13 miles from where it happened.

 

[AndyHall]

http://civilwartalk.com/posts/269741/
http://civilwartalk.com/posts/788789/
http://civilwartalk.com/posts/736346/

 

[Patrick H]

Thank you, Andy, for providing these links from the archives.

The Palmyra Massacre has always struck me as being very akin to the sort of WWII Nazi reprisals that happened all over occupied Europe as a result of guerrilla actions there.

Union officers in Missouri (and even Halleck himself) made matters worse by their orders and directives, by their failure to keep a short leash on local Provost Marshalls and by their decision to treat rebel guerrillas as criminals rather than soldiers.

The civilians of Missouri would pay dearly throughout the war for this sort of mismanagement.

 

[leftyhunter]

Thank you, Andy, for providing these links from the archives.

The Palmyra Massacre has always struck me as being very akin to the sort of WWII Nazi reprisals that happened all over occupied Europe as a result of guerrilla actions there.

Union officers in Missouri (and even Halleck himself) made matters worse by their orders and directives, by their failure to keep a short leash on local Provost Marshalls and by their decision to treat rebel guerrillas as criminals rather than soldiers.

The civilians of Missouri would pay dearly throughout the war for this sort of mismanagement.

What exactly did the rebels expect? Those who support the Union can be killed at will and the Union has to play by the Marquis of Queensbury rules? Has mentioned before on previous threads the Union Army in Mo was rather mild compared to armies in modern COIN wars. Also CSA forces did not follow dainty rules of engagement in fighting Unionist guerrillas either.
Leftyhunter

 

[Patrick H]

What did the rebels expect? Well, I think initially they expected to be treated like soldiers rather than criminals. And if a crime was committed (such as the murder of this civilian) I think they expected the perpetrators to be punished--not a reprisal execution of 10 soldiers who were POWs and, therefore, not involved in the crime. Undoubtedly, there were some rogues on both sides from the earliest days of the conflict and they would have "played dirty" regardless, but I believe actions like the Palmyra massacre made matters much worse.

 

[damYankee]

Well let's talk about the Gainsville Lynching.... 40 suspected,, I repeat, suspected pro unionist were lynched in Texas by Rebels.
https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/jig01

http://civilwarlibrarian.blogspot.com/2007/10/other-voices-memory-of-gainesville.html

 

[leftyhunter]

What did the rebels expect? Well, I think initially they expected to be treated like soldiers rather than criminals. And if a crime was committed (such as the murder of this civilian) I think they expected the perpetrators to be punished--not a reprisal execution of 10 soldiers who were POWs and, therefore, not involved in the crime. Undoubtedly, there were some rogues on both sides from the earliest days of the conflict and they would have "played dirty" regardless, but I believe actions like the Palmyra massacre made matters much worse.

Under the laws of warfare (Pat Young would be the go guy on this one) has they existed in the nineteenth century any person firing on ones force without wearing a uniform is not a soldier and need not be accorded any rights.
Uniformed prisoners are supposed to be treated humanely. Of course has we know in the CW and other conflicts that was not always the case think Ft.Pillow. Once one side decides to use violence for all practical purposes the old saying"rules are meant to be broken applies'. I would not use the analogy that Union troops in Mo used tactics similar to the organization that you named. If you study German COIN operations in WW2 you will see that Union troops where *****cats in comparison.
Also keep in mind COIN warfare be it waged on behalf of the Union or CSA or another country one can not expect pristine rules to always come to play.
Leftyhunter

 

[Lost Cause]

Under the laws of warfare (Pat Young would be the go guy on this one) has they existed in the nineteenth century any person firing on ones force without wearing a uniform is not a soldier and need not be accorded any rights.
Uniformed prisoners are supposed to be treated humanely. Of course has we know in the CW and other conflicts that was not always the case think Ft.Pillow. Once one side decides to use violence for all practical purposes the old saying"rules are meant to be broken applies'. I would not use the analogy that Union troops in Mo used tactics similar to the organization that you named. If you study German COIN operations in WW2 you will see that Union troops where *****cats in comparison.
Also keep in mind COIN warfare be it waged on behalf of the Union or CSA or another country one can not expect pristine rules to always come to play.
Leftyhunter

Egregious acts were committed by both sides in that theater of operations. Some were worse than others. The war of retribution was hell for those that experienced it.

 

[leftyhunter]

Egregious acts were committed by both sides in that theater of operations. Some were worse than others. The war of retribution was hell for those that experienced it.

True. COIN war is a rough and dirty business. Once one side starts the other side will retaliate . It was always thus. On the other hand Union COIN forces in the CW where not has harsh has US forces in other conflicts and much less so then some other nations forces in more recent conflicts.
Leftyhunter

 

[Lost Cause]

True. COIN war is a rough and dirty business. Once one side starts the other side will retaliate . It was always thus. On the other hand Union COIN forces in the CW where not has harsh has US forces in other conflicts and much less so then some other nations forces in more recent conflicts.
Leftyhunter

Some of that has to do with deadlier weaponry.

 

[leftyhunter]

Some of that has to do with deadlier weaponry.

Yes but a lot of it was done face to face and in other cases it was done deliberately.
Leftyhunter

 

[Lost Cause]

Yes but a lot of it was done face to face and in other cases it was done deliberately.
Leftyhunter

On both sides

 

[leftyhunter]

On both sides

It takes two to tango.
Leftyhunter

 

[Lost Cause]

It takes two to tango.
Leftyhunter

Agreed

 

[damYankee]

Our OP seems to have abandoned the issue, maybe a hit and run drive by poster?

 

[Nathanb1]

I definitely feel as though I was hit and run over by the last few posts. Silliness at its worst. And I get to have the last word on Gainesville. At least a couple were involved up to their eyeballs in the Peace Party. For sure.

 

[damYankee]

I definitely feel as though I was hit and run over by the last few posts. Silliness at its worst. And I get to have the last word on Gainesville. At least a couple were involved up to their eyeballs in the Peace Party. For sure.

And they were lynched. The largest lynching in the history of the US. A proud moment indeed.

 

[Specster]

What exactly did the rebels expect? Those who support the Union can be killed at will and the Union has to play by the Marquis of Queensbury rules? Has mentioned before on previous threads the Union Army in Mo was rather mild compared to armies in modern COIN wars. Also CSA forces did not follow dainty rules of engagement in fighting Unionist guerrillas either.
Leftyhunter

I think whether Porter is rightfully a CSA officer or a guerrilla is important. I also think uniforms are key and Porter, at least for some time preferred to wear Union blue because it was more comfortable. McNiel refused to consider him anything other than a guerrilla. I think many of his tactics were guerrilla tactics, focused against civilians but he also fought several military battles against US soldiers.

I think once you are engaged in warfare and not in uniform you should not expect to be treated as anything but a guerrilla. The fact that all 10 men were confederate soldiers does not sit well with me at all.

 

[Patrick H]

I think whether Porter is rightfully a CSA officer or a guerrilla is important. I also think uniforms are key and Porter, at least for some time preferred to wear Union blue because it was more comfortable. McNiel refused to consider him anything other than a guerrilla. I think many of his tactics were guerrilla tactics, focused against civilians but he also fought several military battles against US soldiers.

I think once you are engaged in warfare and not in uniform you should not expect to be treated as anything but a guerrilla. The fact that all 10 men were confederate soldiers does not sit well with me at all.

That's my problem, too. The executed men were POWs--just selected and executed in retaliation for a crime committed by someone else.

 

[leftyhunter]

I think whether Porter is rightfully a CSA officer or a guerrilla is important. I also think uniforms are key and Porter, at least for some time preferred to wear Union blue because it was more comfortable. McNiel refused to consider him anything other than a guerrilla. I think many of his tactics were guerrilla tactics, focused against civilians but he also fought several military battles against US soldiers.

I think once you are engaged in warfare and not in uniform you should not expect to be treated as anything but a guerrilla. The fact that all 10 men were confederate soldiers does not sit well with me at all.

I agree if Porters men wore blue they got what they deserve. Has far has I know Marmaduke and Jo Shelpys men wore standard CSA style uniforms so they where treated has legitimate Pows. Not that being in a CW Pow camp was all that great an alternative.
Leftyhunter