The Imaginary Abe Lincoln

[OpnCoronet]

As a matter of Fact, there was a union of colonies in Congress Assembled(still professing their loyalty to the British Crown) before they were a union of states, and later, it was that same union of colonies in Congress Assembled which declared themselves to be a union of states in Congress Assembled.

 

[KeyserSoze]

The Lincoln that this article describes exists in Sobran's imagination and nowhere else.

 

[jgoodguy]

Please be polite. Attack the arguments and evidence, not the advocate.

 

[jgoodguy]

W


What were they united in? Not united states per say but stood by each other in the cause. Come on, you know better.

What do you mean by Not united states per say. As a country named the United States-a legal international entity, we have existed since the DOI.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Please be polite. Attack the arguments and evidence, not the advocate.

What evidence? What arguments? Sobran's article is a non-stop conglomoration of factual errors, misquotes, fantasy, and opinion paraded as fact. And that's being far more polite than it deserves.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Can you explain this so as to be clear on Sobran's points?

Let's start with this claim: "This contradicted Lincoln's own ringing affirmation of the right of secession during the Mexican War, but never mind." Lincoln never, ever affirmed the right of secession, not during the Mexican war or any other time. Sobran is making stuff up as he goes along.

 

[KeyserSoze]

If I had posted misleading information I too would disappear.

Perhaps that's why Sobran doesn't show up around here?

 

[KeyserSoze]

"Since the Constitution doesn't forbid the states to secede, the North found it necessary to violate the Constitution in order to suppress Southern independence. Lincoln was forced to usurp legislative powers by raising troops and money and by suspending the writ of habeas corpus; when Chief Justice Roger Taney ruled such acts unconstitutional, Lincoln wrote an order for Taney's arrest! He never followed through on that, but he did illegally arrest 31 antiwar members of the Maryland legislature and install a puppet government. He went on to crush freedom of speech and press throughout the North. Such was Lincoln's idea of 'preserving the Constitution' and government of the people, by the people, for the people."
Joseph Sobran

I see you chose to include the section that contains some of the bald-faced lies that Sobran throws out. Lincoln never ordered the arrest of Taney. That is complete Sobran fantasy. He never installed a 'puppet government' in Maryland or anywhere else. That is very typical Sobran BS. And he did not 'crush freedom of speech and press throughout the North..." That is pure Sobran exaggeration.

Jeez, you might as well dredge up Wally Williams again. At least he's a harmless boob. Sobran is a vicious one.

 

[jgoodguy]

What evidence? What arguments? Sobran's article is a non-stop conglomoration of factual errors, misquotes, fantasy, and opinion paraded as fact. And that's being far more polite than it deserves.

Just because I make a general comment, does not mean it is directed at anyone specific even if by fate it follows a post.

 

[CSA Today]

I see you chose to include the section that contains some of the bald-faced lies that Sobran throws out. Lincoln never ordered the arrest of Taney. That is complete Sobran fantasy. He never installed a 'puppet government' in Maryland or anywhere else. That is very typical Sobran BS. And he did not 'crush freedom of speech and press throughout the North..." That is pure Sobran exaggeration.

Jeez, you might as well dredge up Wally Williams again. At least he's a harmless boob. Sobran is a vicious one.

Then why don't you provide sources that support your opinions instead of attacking Joseph Sobran and whoever "Wally Williams" is rather than the use vituperative evasion in a thinly guised attempt to avoid doing so? You would then have some basis to fall back on rather than what thus far has been nothing more than personal opinion.

"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movements."
Abraham Lincoln, January 12, 1848

 

[KeyserSoze]

Just because I make a general comment, does not mean it is directed at anyone specific even if by fate it follows a post.

Yes, well I just assumed. I've been taken to task on more than one occasion. If it wasn't directed at me then I made up for a time when you should have directed one to me but didn't.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Then why don't you provide sources that support your opinions instead of attacking Joseph Sobran and whoever "Wally Williams" is rather than the use vituperative evasion in a thinly guised attempt to avoid doing so? You would then have some basis to fall back on rather than what thus far has been nothing more than personal opinion.

How do you prove a negative? Answer me that? How do I prove Lincoln didn't give an arrest order he never issued? How do I prove he didn't install a puppet government that didn't exist? Instead, since you're head-over-heels for SOBran, then why not do his light work and provide evidence of the Taney arrest order or the Maryland puppet government? See if you can do what your buddy can't.

"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movements."
Abraham Lincoln, January 12, 1848

And while you're at it, please point out where Lincoln used the words 'secession' or 'secede' in that statement. SOBran can see it. You obviously can see it as well. But somehow I'm missing it. Please assist.

 

[Rebforever]

I see you chose to include the section that contains some of the bald-faced lies that Sobran throws out. Lincoln never ordered the arrest of Taney. That is complete Sobran fantasy. He never installed a 'puppet government' in Maryland or anywhere else. That is very typical Sobran BS. And he did not 'crush freedom of speech and press throughout the North..." That is pure Sobran exaggeration.

Jeez, you might as well dredge up Wally Williams again. At least he's a harmless boob. Sobran is a vicious one.

My goodness!! It is easy to see there are parts of history that you fail to understand or completely chose to ignore it.

 

[CSA Today]

How do you prove a negative? Answer me that? How do I prove Lincoln didn't give an arrest order he never issued? How do I prove he didn't install a puppet government that didn't exist? Instead, since you're head-over-heels for SOBran, then why not do his light work and provide evidence of the Taney arrest order or the Maryland puppet government? See if you can do what your buddy can't.




And while you're at it, please point out where Lincoln used the words 'secession' or 'secede' in that statement. SOBran can see it. You obviously can see it as well. But somehow I'm missing it. Please assist.

Lincoln said: "Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better."

I have never said, nor do I believe anyone else here has ever said that either side went to war over semantics in 1864.

"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movements."

Abraham Lincoln, January 12, 1848

 

[KeyserSoze]

My goodness!! It is easy to see there are parts of history that you fail to understand or completely chose to ignore it.

Really? Then by all means set me straight.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Lincoln said: "Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better."

I have never said, nor do I believe anyone else here has ever said that either side went to war over semantics in 1864.

We're not talking semantics, we're talking facts. Show me where Lincoln ever supported secession, either during the Mexican war or any other war, as SOBran claims.

But I think what we're dealing with here is not semantics but synonyms. Are you, and SOBran, claiming that secession and rebellion are synonymous? Then that would make Lincoln's quote appropriate for what you insist on using it for.

 

[Rebforever]

Really? Then by all means set me straight.

For your reading pleasure!

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

Note the small letters of united. This document is an agreement between states for their independence from England only.

Line 5 it says United Colonies, not states, and should have the right of Independent States. There is NO union, just telling the English what they are going to do with every State agreeing. Note they are independent states.

 

[Rebforever]

What do you mean by Not united states per say. As a country named the United States-a legal international entity, we have existed since the DOI.

I am afraid you are not with the program here. We are discussing the words of the DOI.

 

[Rebforever]

As a matter of Fact, there was a union of colonies in Congress Assembled(still professing their loyalty to the British Crown) before they were a union of states, and later, it was that same union of colonies in Congress Assembled which declared themselves to be a union of states in Congress Assembled.

It was NOT a certified union yet. All the states were represented to SEND WORD TO ENGLAND, these states were going after independence.

 

[KeyserSoze]

For your reading pleasure!

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

Note the small letters of united. This document is an agreement between states for their independence from England only.

Line 5 it says United Colonies, not states, and should have the right of Independent States. There is NO union, just telling the English what they are going to do with every State agreeing. Note they are independent states.

How about this?

"To all to whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States affixed to our Names send greeting.

Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states of New Hampshire, Massachusetts-bay Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia.

I. The title of this confederacy shall be "The United States of America".

Note that the states came together to form the confederacy, not the colonies. Note that the 'U' in United is capitalized. If we consider the adoption of the Articles of Confederation to be the founding of the country then it appears that Lincoln could be correct - states preceded the country. At least they thought they did.

Articles of Confederation