The Copse or the Grove

[Gettysburg Greg]

Was the landmark targeted by the Picket, Petigrew, Trimble Charge the small Copse of Trees near the Angle or the large stand of woods known as Ziegler Grove? That has been a question discussed by historians ever since John Bachelder declared the Copse t0 be their target some time in the 1880's. Having heard arguments supporting both conclusions, I have to say I now subscribe to the Ziegler Grove theory. I won't detail each argument here, but instead just post two images in which you can compare the two landmarks yourself and form your own conclusion. I will add that I am currently reading Pickett's Charge-the Last Attack at Gettysburg by Earl Hess and the author is convinced that Ziegler Grove was the intended target of the charge. The author contends that the marching orders were for the men of Petigrew and Trimble's Divisions to march straight across the field from their position on Seminary Ridge which would have been directly at the Grove. Picket's Division was separated from Petigrew and Trimble by some 400 yards and he was to close up the gap by a series of left obliques such that the separated divisions would come together in the area of the Angle. Below is an 1863 view of the two possible target areas taken from Little Round Top and a modern view showing Lee's perspective from Seminary Ridge. Judge for yourselves.....

 

[theoldman]

Greg,
It is still early here and I may need a cup of coffee but your pictures have me confused. The top one is an 1863 picture "from Little Round Top"? I didn't think you could get a frontal view of the Copse from Little Round Top. The 1863 picture has the Copse on the left and the modern picture has the Copse on the Right.

A little help please.

BTW, I truly like your "Then and Now" threads.

Thanks

 

[Gettysburg Greg]

Greg,
It is still early here and I may need a cup of coffee but your pictures have me confused. The top one is an 1863 picture "from Little Round Top"? I didn't think you could get a frontal view of the Copse from Little Round Top. The 1863 picture has the Copse on the left and the modern picture has the Copse on the Right.

A little help please.

BTW, I truly like your "Then and Now" threads.

Thanks

I probably wasn't very clear, sorry. First, to be clear, the two photos are not intended to be a matching then and nows. They are completely different perspectives. The purpose of the 1863 photo was to show the difference in size between the Copse and the Grove. This is a blow up from Brady's photograph taken from the summit of LRT in which you can see the copse as it appeared during the battle. My modern photo from Seminary Ridge was to show Lee's perspective keeping in mind that Ziegler Grove is much smaller today than it was in 1863-see the 1863 image. Hope that clears it up, but please ask if not. Thanks for the comment.

 

[Gettysburg Greg]

Greg,
It is still early here and I may need a cup of coffee but your pictures have me confused. The top one is an 1863 picture "from Little Round Top"? I didn't think you could get a frontal view of the Copse from Little Round Top. The 1863 picture has the Copse on the left and the modern picture has the Copse on the Right.

A little help please.

BTW, I truly like your "Then and Now" threads.

Thanks

One more thing to confuse you with, on this google map I tagged Little Round Top, Lee's POV, and the Copse of Trees. The two images I posted are looking towards the COT from those two locations.

 

[theoldman]

One more thing to confuse you with, on this google map I tagged Little Round Top, Lee's POV, and the Copse of Trees. The two images I posted are looking towards the COT from those two locations.
View attachment 104997

I don't mean to be 'kicking a dead dog', so to speak, but the angle of the first picture seems to be from directly behind or east of the Copse. I have no expertise on pictures and do not mean to be argumentative. Just saying.

 

[Gettysburg Greg]

I don't mean to be 'kicking a dead dog', so to speak, but the angle of the first picture seems to be from directly behind or east of the Copse. I have no expertise on pictures and do not mean to be argumentative. Just saying.

LRT is South and slightly East of the copse as shown in the google map above. So, your perspective is from "behind" the copse in Brady's photo. Not clear on your question, sorry.

 

[Tom Elmore]

Examining the alignment of the divisions of Pickett, Pettigrew and Trimble prior to the charge, it appears to me that the copse, and not Ziegler's grove, was closer to the intended point of concentration, but I tend to accept that the angle where the wall turned south (the "Angle") was the actual aiming point - just north of the copse and further south from the grove.

The left of Pickett and right of Pettigrew, which were initially separated, came together in front of the Angle, and that strongly suggests to me that it was intended to be the center point of the attack. An east-west running fence that would have served perfectly to guide Archer's brigade along their advance, was aimed almost directly at the Angle. The Angle was also the center of Hazard's (Second Corps) artillery line, with Cushing's battery being at the mid-point, very close to the Angle.

 

[Gettysburg Greg]

Examining the alignment of the divisions of Pickett, Pettigrew and Trimble prior to the charge, it appears to me that the copse, and not Ziegler's grove, was closer to the intended point of concentration, but I tend to accept that the angle where the wall turned south (the "Angle") was the actual aiming point - just north of the copse and further south from the grove.

The left of Pickett and right of Pettigrew, which were initially separated, came together in front of the Angle, and that strongly suggests to me that it was intended to be the center point of the attack. An east-west running fence that would have served perfectly to guide Archer's brigade along their advance, was aimed almost directly at the Angle. The Angle was also the center of Hazard's (Second Corps) artillery line, with Cushing's battery being at the mid-point, very close to the Angle.

I agree with you logic, but that angle in the fence line would not have been visible to most of the commanders on Seminary Ridge while Ziegler's Grove was a highly visible landmark. Both could be true.

 

[theoldman]

I tend to go with the Copse. The Copse was visible and provided a narrow target. In my opinion the attack had to mass at a very narrow point to get superior and overwhelming numbers that would break through, hold the shoulders and either penetrate or expand the breach. The numbers were not there for the NVA despite incredible bravery. Union artillery had something to do with that, I would add.

Seems that this has been discussed on other threads but not exactly in this manner, as I can recall.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Pickett's-Charge.png

From that map it seems that if Pettigrew and Trimble were aiming for Ziegler's Grove they drifted south and Pickett was positioned much too far south to reasonably aim for Ziegler's Grove.

Maybe that map is inaccurate? Does Hess have a map in his book that more accurately shows the charge relative to Ziegler's Grove?

 

[theoldman]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Pickett's-Charge.png

From that map it seems that if Pettigrew and Trimble were aiming for Ziegler's Grove they drifted south and Pickett was positioned much too far south to reasonably aim for Ziegler's Grove.

Maybe that map is inaccurate? Does Hess have a map in his book that more accurately shows the charge relative to Ziegler's Grove?

I took this picture during the recent CWT get together at Gettysburg. It is the info sign on the battlefield showing the Pettigrew & Trimble attack.

I will add that after considering all the excellent points made in this thread that I think the Day 3 objective may have simply been the "center of the union line" and not any specific physical feature such as trees. At the end of the Day 2 attack the leadership of the ANV knew how the AoP was deployed.

 

[rpkennedy]

I took this picture during the recent CWT get together at Gettysburg. It is the info sign on the battlefield showing the Pettigrew & Trimble attack.
View attachment 112415

I will add that after considering all the excellent points made in this thread that I think the Day 3 objective may have simply been the "center of the union line" and not any specific physical feature such as trees. At the end of the Day 2 attack the leadership of the ANV knew the how the AoP was deployed.

Bingo. I'm not convinced that there was a geographical point of attack for the assaulting columns other than wherever the two wings struck the Union line.

Ryan

 

[Yankeedave]

So much info.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Perhaps the correct answer, besides "the center of the Union line", is that the attack aimed neither for the Copse nor Ziegler's Grove, but instead the space between the two. Two prominent groups of trees on an otherwise open ridge make for excellent "goal posts" to run your army through. Trying to attack a narrow point with three divisions would make sense for a salient, but for a fairly straight line like Meade's it seems like too many men in too little space coming in such a way to be exposed to too much flanking fire. It also seems to fit the reality of the attack, especially as depicted on the map photo posted by theoldman.

 

[Yankeedave]

I read iirc in carol readon's book on the charge that "mississippi troops were pulled out of zeigler's grove".? Davis's men? And how did the person making the reference know they were mississippians?

 

[rpkennedy]

I read iirc in carol readon's book on the charge that "mississippi troops were pulled out of zeigler's grove".? Davis's men? And how did the person making the reference know they were mississippians?

Ziegler's Grove is on Cemetery Hill and was controlled by the Union during the battle. The closest any Mississippians got to Zeigler's Grove was the very few who took cover behind the Brian buildings on Cemetery Ridge (the Brian Farm was located on the edge of the grove).

Ryan

 

[Gettysburg Greg]

Ziegler's Grove is on Cemetery Hill and was controlled by the Union during the battle. The closest any Mississippians got to Zeigler's Grove was the very few who took cover behind the Brian buildings on Cemetery Ridge (the Brian Farm was located on the edge of the grove).

Ryan

I agree that the Mississippians may have gotten as far as the Brian barn. There is a monument to the 11th Miss. next to the barn now. You might find this attached T&N interesting in which I used Dale Gallon's painting depicting the final moments of the advance of the Southerners. In the painting , you can see Ziegler Grove is behind the house where no Confederate made it to.

 

[Yankeedave]

I cant understand why a person who was there would say that.

 

[BillO]

The final target was the ridge that the Grove was on. The angle was the large angle of the federal positions not the little bend in the wall.

 

[rpkennedy]

The final target was the ridge that the Grove was on. The angle was the large angle of the federal positions not the little bend in the wall.

There was no angle in the Union line.

Ryan