The Confederate flag

[Josey Whales]

Can anyone discuss the accurate history of the confederate flag? I read that the original creator of the flag ( which I believe predates the war) submitted it to the U.S. Congress as a potential choice as our national flag. When it was rejected a military unit from Virginia adopted it as their own? I keep getting into arguments on social media about the flags roots in slavery and hatred, but I don't believe that these people are properly informed. Am I correct or am I the one who is misinformed?

 

[thomas aagaard]

No mater what ideas the creator had, it have over the last 150 years become the symbol of the confederacy for most people.
(in the US and everywhere else where people might know anything about the confederacy)
An attempt at creating a state based on race based slavery, that is very hard to morally defend today.

And it is being used/misused by right wing **** groups Exactly as a symbol of ****.
Just google a photo from the Charlottesville rally. It is carried by a lot of participates... side by side with the swastika.

So it should come as no surprise that many people see it as a symbol of slavery, hate, racism and ****.


I wold like to read a factual account of the use of the flag. Both during the war and since.
Because the KKK did not always use it as we can see from this parade true Washington in 1925

So something obviously changed. But what?

My guess would be that back in the 1920ties the Klan saw the federal government as something positive. Or at least as something that allowed the South to blatantly violate the Constitution in a number of ways. And as such allow the segregation and discrimination that existed by law.
And with Members of Congress and at least one Supreme court justice that was also members of the Klan it had some political power.

But Post 1960ties, I would think this view have changed since the federal government did force desegregation, the right to vote for colored and so on.
And at the same time it failed to deal with the less legally based segregation and discrimination in the north. So it would make sense that the federal government is now seen rather negatively.
And this would make the use of the cbf rather logical.

 

[Belle Montgomery]

Can anyone discuss the accurate history of the confederate flag? I read that the original creator of the flag ( which I believe predates the war) submitted it to the U.S. Congress as a potential choice as our national flag. When it was rejected a military unit from Virginia adopted it as their own? I keep getting into arguments on social media about the flags roots in slavery and hatred, but I don't believe that these people are properly informed. Am I correct or am I the one who is misinformed?

Due to confusion among the troops during the First Battle of Bull Run due to the similar design and color of the Confederate flag, the Stars and Bars, and the Union flag, the Stars and Stripes, Confederate General P. G. T. Beauregard recommended that the Confederate flag be changed.

Constance Cary wrote:

During the autumn of '61, to my cousins, Hetty and Jennie, and to me was entrusted the making of the first three battle flags of the Confederacy. They were jaunty squares of scarlet crossed with dark blue edged in white, the cross bearing stars to indicate the number of the seceded states. We set our best stitches upon them, edged with gold fringed, and, when they were finished, dispatched one to General Joseph Johnston, another to General Pierre Beauregard, and the last to General Earl Van Dorn. The banners were made from red silk for the fields and blue silk for the crosses.​

The resulting flag, commonly called the Southern Cross, served as the principal battle flag of the cavalry, infantry, and artillery units in the Army of Northern Virginia from November 1861 until the surrender at Appomattox Court House in April 1865.

See Also: https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/the-confederate-flag.html

 

[thomas aagaard]

See Also: https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/the-confederate-flag.html

Thanks for line link. A good coverage of the topic I think.

 

[CivilWarTalk]

This topic is fine as long as we all remember to restrain ourselves.

Please keep discussion to history of flag, OP is asking for history of the first version of this flag, but I understand if mentions of late 1800's history happen. I think post 1900 history is beyond the scope of this thread, and will be rejected.

 

[TomP]

As noted in Post #3, one of the three original flags, the one made by Constance Cary, was given to Major General Earl Van Dorn shortly before he went went to command the Trans-Mississippi District No. 2. On February 7, 1862 Van Dorn wrote to Maj. Gen. Sterling Price, his senior subordinate, "So many mistakes have occured during this war by the similarity of flags that I have had a battle-flag made, one for each regiment of your army, to be carried into battle."

The flags commissioned by Van Dorn were NOT copies of the William P. Miles flag sewn by Miss Cary, but the distictive blood-red flag with the gold crescent and stars; the Van Dorn Pattern Flag.

I wonder what Earl did with his original Miles pattern flag?

 

[James N.]

Can anyone discuss the accurate history of the confederate flag? I read that the original creator of the flag ( which I believe predates the war) submitted it to the U.S. Congress as a potential choice as our national flag. When it was rejected a military unit from Virginia adopted it as their own? I keep getting into arguments on social media about the flags roots in slavery and hatred, but I don't believe that these people are properly informed. Am I correct or am I the one who is misinformed?

Of course @Belle Montgomery's version is the correct one, although I can't remember the name of the man who actually came up with the design. To continue the story: In the East, most Confederate units were using the Stars and Bars based on the U. S. flag, and that was what had caused all the trouble at Bull Run, so the new SQUARE battleflag was quickly adopted by most regiments except Virginia which continued for some time to use their blue State flags.- not so in the West, however. There it was more slowly adopted, often in its rectangular version as we now think of it. The C.S. Navy also used a rectangular version called the Navy Jack.

 

[James N.]

To elaborate, prior to Shiloh in April 1862, the Confederate army in the west was badly scattered; Beauregard was sent from Virginia to help organize it around the rail center at Corinth, Mississippi. Likely because he knew the problem at Bull Run and was carrying one of the Cary sisters' flags, he realized that he could take the idea even farther: each corps of the Western Army of Mississippi, Polk's, Bragg's, and Hardee's would each adopt a distinctive and different flag to help identify their own troops on the battlefield. Only one chose the new battleflag (Bragg's I think), though it was in the rectangular style, so this put its adoption by the entire army on hold. When another new corps (Van Dorn's) arrived after Shiloh it's commander chose something altogether different, a bizarre red flag with a crescent moon and stars. This system prevailed in the West I think until 1864 in northern Georgia when Joe Johnston now commanding what was called the Army of Tennessee ordered all to convert to the rectangular version of the battleflag. In the East Lee's army mainly utilized the square battleflag, though there were some exceptions of the rectangular one.

In early 1863, the National Confederate flag was changed from the Stars and Bars to what was called the Stainless Banner, a white flag with a square battleflag as its canton. It was first used to drape the casket of Stonewall Jackson at his funeral in Richmond and first appeared on the battlefield at Gettysburg. The last version of a National flag for the Confederacy merely added a vertical red stripe to the end. As I think you can see from this very brief account, NONE of this had anything at all to do with slavery, ****, or anything of the sort!

 

[James N.]

As noted in Post #3, one of the three original flags, the one made by Constance Cary, was given to Major General Earl Van Dorn shortly before he went went to command the Trans-Mississippi District No. 2. On February 7, 1862 Van Dorn wrote to Maj. Gen. Sterling Price, his senior subordinate, "So many mistakes have occured during this war by the similarity of flags that I have had a battle-flag made, one for each regiment of your army, to be carried into battle."

The flags commissioned by Van Dorn were NOT copies of the William P. Miles flag sewn by Miss Cary, but the distictive blood-red flag with the gold crescent and stars; the Van Dorn Pattern Flag.

I wonder what Earl did with his original Miles pattern flag?

I don't know when Van Dorn designed his distinctive red star-spangled flag, but it was sometime following his March, 1862 defeat at Pea Ridge/Elkhorn Tavern, because there the Texas-Arkansas-Louisiana contingents were carrying an elongated rectangular Stars and Bars First National; I don't remember what the Missouri State Guard was using, though I think it was a variation of the State flag.

 

[wbull1]

Thanks to everyone who posted for a thoughtful and reasonable discussion.

 

[2nd Alabama Cavalry]

Nicola Marshall designed the First National Confederate Flag on 28 Feb 1861 as well as the Confederate Uniform at his studio at Marion, Alabama, asked by the daughter-in-law of Governor Andrew B. Moore. On 1 March 1861, The first Confederate flag (First National) was raised over the Provisional Confederate States Capitol (State House at Montgomery) at 3:30 PM by Letita Tyler, granddaughter of former U.S. President John Tyler. The flag, which flew on a flagpole by the capitol clock, was not the Confederate battle flag, but the "First National Pattern," also known as the stars and bars, just 3 days before President-Elect Abraham Lincoln would be sworn in as the 16th President of the United States of America on 4 Mar 1861.

The First National Flag was used as the Confederate Battle Flag and the Confederate government flag until Hetty, Jenny and Constance Cary sewed the first three Confederate Battle Flags and presented them to General Joseph E. Johnston, P.G.T. Beauregard and Earl Van Dorn at a ceremony on 28 Nov 1861 at Centreville, Virginia 25 miles south of Washington, D.C. and 2 miles north of Manasses where the Battle of Bull Run was fought. The design was from P.G.T. Beuregard and Senator William Porcher Miles, because of the Confusion created in recognizing the First National Flag during battle, it was too easily confused with the U. S. Flag from the smoke of the Battle, so P.G.T. Beauregard proposed designing a new battle flag to identify the Army on the field of battle and a Government Flag which would remain the First National Flag. This was in September of 1861, which is when the Cary Sisters, Hetty and Jennie along with their cousin Constance began sewing the Flags.

Photo below: Nicola Marschall (1829 - 1917).

Photo below: Hetty Cary

Photo below: Constance Cary

 

[GwilymT]

To elaborate, prior to Shiloh in April 1862, the Confederate army in the west was badly scattered; Beauregard was sent from Virginia to help organize it around the rail center at Corinth, Mississippi. Likely because he knew the problem at Bull Run and was carrying one of the Cary sisters' flags, he realized that he could take the idea even farther: each corps of the Western Army of Mississippi, Polk's, Bragg's, and Hardee's would each adopt a distinctive and different flag to help identify their own troops on the battlefield. Only one chose the new battleflag (Bragg's I think), though it was in the rectangular style, so this put its adoption by the entire army on hold. When another new corps (Van Dorn's) arrived after Shiloh it's commander chose something altogether different, a bizarre red flag with a crescent moon and stars. This system prevailed in the West I think until 1864 in northern Georgia when Joe Johnston now commanding what was called the Army of Tennessee ordered all to convert to the rectangular version of the battleflag. In the East Lee's army mainly utilized the square battleflag, though there were some exceptions of the rectangular one.

In early 1863, the National Confederate flag was changed from the Stars and Bars to what was called the Stainless Banner, a white flag with a square battleflag as its canton. It was first used to drape the casket of Stonewall Jackson at his funeral in Richmond and first appeared on the battlefield at Gettysburg. The last version of a National flag for the Confederacy merely added a vertical red stripe to the end. As I think you can see from this very brief account, NONE of this had anything at all to do with slavery, ****, or anything of the sort!

Ahh... the Stainless Banner:

"As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause."

-William Thompson, Editor, Savannah Morning News, April 23, 1863

Ole Willie had it right.

https://web.archive.org/web/2014012...-stainless-banner/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

 

[19thGeorgia]

Ahh... the Stainless Banner:

"As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause."

-William Thompson, Editor, Savannah Morning News, April 23, 1863

Ole Willie had it right.

https://web.archive.org/web/2014012...-stainless-banner/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

"The white in the flag signified purity and truth." -Alexander Boteler, Flag and Seal Committee, Confederate House of Representatives
"A white field, signifying purity, truth and freedom." -Peter W. Gray, Flag and Seal Committee, Confederate House of Representatives
Richmond Whig, May 5, 1863 (report on debates in the CS Congress)