The Confederacy needed Hadrian Wall...

[piratehunter]

Hadrian's wall was built as a way or keeping the troops busy, and therefore enforcing discipline and keeping men soldier-like when little else is going on, at an outpost distant from the capital.

This is similar to Grant's "Bayou Expeditions" and canal digging activities in early 1863, while he was waiting for warm weather to dry the roads in Mississippi sufficiently to allow his army to march to the Vicksburg area.

(As an aside to CWT, Grant also had to make it look like he was taking active measures to capture Vicksburg while he was, in fact, just waiting for dry roads. The northern press was clamoring for a big victory in the West, unsatisfied with the near constant and embarrassing defeats of the Federal armies in the East. Grant was concerned that he might be replaced. His reputation as invincible was not set in stone in early 1863.)

Also, Hadrian ordered the building of the wall that bears his name as a means of enhancing his power and status.
If a ruler orders that a wall, even largely unnecessary, be built and it is done, it reinforces his Imperial power.
Believe me, I don't want to get into modern politics, but some people, right or wrong, might say that scenario seems familiar.

Our Masters the Rebels: A Speculation on Union Military Failure in the East, 1861-1865
by Michael C.C. Adams

 

[Saphroneth]

in practical terms it wouldn't have been enough to stop a determined invading army

That is the point, though. It means that the enemy needs a determined invading army to get over it, rather than raids; such an army is logistically difficult and wll give more warning than smaller raids, so there's the chance to meet it with a mobilized Roman force.

There's never been any such thing as an invulnerable defence except in mythology, just one that's worthwhile and makes things harder for the enemy (and possibly too hard for what the enemy has right now to overcome).

 

[John Wayne Brady]

Hadrian's wall was built as a way or keeping the troops busy, and therefore enforcing discipline and keeping men soldier-like when little else is going on, at an outpost distant from the capital.

This is similar to Grant's "Bayou Expeditions" and canal digging activities in early 1863, while he was waiting for warm weather to dry the roads in Mississippi sufficiently to allow his army to march to the Vicksburg area.

(As an aside to CWT, Grant also had to make it look like he was taking active measures to capture Vicksburg while he was, in fact, just waiting for dry roads. The northern press was clamoring for a big victory in the West, unsatisfied with the near constant and embarrassing defeats of the Federal arm'ies in the East. Grant was concerned that he might be replaced. His reputation as invincible was not set in stone in early 1863.)

Also, Hadrian ordered the building of the wall that bears his name as a means of enhancing his power and status.
If a ruler orders that a wall, even largely unnecessary, be built and it is done, it reinforces his Imperial power.
Believe me, I don't want to get into modern politics, but some people, right or wrong, might say that scenario seems familiar.

So are you saying Hadrian's Wall wasn't really built for defense?
You sound like you are correct, and if you are, why aren't they teaching this in High School?

 

[jackt62]

Don't see the practically of a so-called Hadrian's Wall. For one thing, the southland was militarily accessible by numerous waterways, the most important being the Mississippi, Tennessee, and Cumberland. The confederacy utilized river defenses including river chains, forts. gun emplacements and gun boats but these proved ineffective for the most part.

 

[Irishtom29]

I've walked along Hadrians wall many times, it's pretty impressive but as was stated earlier, it was really only built as a statement and to define the the outer limit of an empire, in practical terms it wouldn't have been enough to stop a determined invading army. I think those that lived beyond the wall weren't really sure if the wall was built to keep them out or to keep the Roman Britain's in.

Well, the wall did serve to keep raiders from the north afoot which meant they could be rounded up on their way back north by Roman cavalry.

 

[Waterloo50]

Well, the wall did serve to keep raiders from the north afoot which meant they could be rounded up on their way back north by Roman cavalry.

The walls never really worked, don't forget the Romans pushed further north and built and occupied the Antonine wall, when they couldn't defend it they fell back to Hadrians wall. These walls are all well and good but when you consider that the Antonine wall was shorter and had a greater number of forts than Hadrians wall and it still couldn't be used effectively. It is therefore evident that the wall was nothing more than a show of strength and a political statement. If the confederacy had managed to build a similar wall, I believe they would have run into exactly the same difficulties as the Romans, small groups of raiders bypassing the wall patrols, causing havoc and then returning home safely.

 

[SouthernRebel772]

I don't see the practical use of walls per say as being a great use of time or resources for the South. I would argue thought that if the South had made more practical use of field fortifications in the early years of the war as they did in 1864, then it could have saved manpower and dragged out the war. This of course would require a fundamental shift in thinking on both sides about entrenchments from the onset. When in practice it was only after three years of war that this revolution in warfare was reached.

 

[USS ALASKA]

No problem. Make Lincoln pay for it.

That sounds familiar...I just can't put my finger on...

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[5fish]

I found another Great Wall on our planet... It is a natural barrier and the Game of Thrones Wall is real and it's in Russia...

It is in the Lena Pillars Park in Russia...

Here a video it in the summertime...

Look up the park for some great stills of the wall... If the Confederacy had walls like this they could have won the war....

 

[5fish]

I prove Game of Thrones is true... lol... Winter is Coming but in April on the 14th... it is amazing how accurate weather forecasting is getting... lol... Who knew winter started in April...

 

[5fish]

It seems I found another wall and its seems from all these ancient walls every society go through a "Build the Wall
" phase ... Eygpt had a great wall too... more like a series or canals and walls... called the "Wall of the Ruler" ...

Snippets...

One of humanity's greatest but least known engineering feats was an ancient canal that crossed the Egyptian desert from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean, roughly the same trajectory as the modern Suez Canal. Its waterway was 230 feet wide!1 To either side, the fill from its excavation was heaped into defensive ramparts running its entire length. This created a double border wall with a massive central moat, which contemporary art shows stocked with crocodiles and a papyrus describes as heavily patrolled by watchmen.2 William H. Shea demonstrated that this was what the Egyptians had called the "Wall of the Ruler," a combination navigational canal and border wall first proposed as a barrier against Canaanite invasion and immigration circa 2100 bc by Pharaoh Akhtoy III and finally completed by Amenemhet I circa 1960 bc.3

Here is this...

Moses was told by God to avoid the northern route directly to Canaan (the heavily fortified road traveled by Seti I in the relief) but instead head southeast "toward the Red Sea" (Exodus 13:17-18). They traveled until they hit "the edge" or "border" "of the wilderness" (Exodus 13:20) at a site generally thought to be in the Wadi Tumilat. Upon hitting this border they changed course, turning again toward the Red Sea. The "border" that they hit in this area would have been the Tumilat Canal, which explains why they were forced to turn.

There is an image too...

Here is the link... http://sccompton.com/ancient-egyptian-border-defenses-and-the-exodus/

From Wiki...

The Walls-of-the-Ruler was a fortification, or possibly a whole string of them, built by Amenemhat I in the 14th nome of Lower Egypt to protect the eastern approaches to Egypt.[1] It succeeded the Old Kingdom Walls-of-Sneferu.[2]

The Walls-of-the-Ruler are mentioned in the Tale of Sinuhe[3] and in the so-called Prophecy of Neferti.[4] No remains have been found.[1]. New Kingdom depictions show forts which had a secured supply of water and were surrounded by crocodile-infested ditches or canals which were spanned by bridges.[2]

Here Edited.

https://vdare.com/articles/the-walls-of-the-ruler-there-was-immigration-control-in-biblical-times

In the ancient Egyptian Prophecy of Neferti, it's predicted that due to the king's failure to maintain his country's borders and keep out infiltrators, a new king would arise and take his place, one who would "build the 'Walls of the Ruler'… to prevent Asiatics from going down into Egypt."

Edited.

 

[steve59p]

5fish

Given that no sign of such a canal has been found and a 230' wide sea level canal almost certainly would be and would be likely to survive it sounds more like a desire/plan than something that actually occurred. It would be a massive project, dwarfing the pyramids in construction efforts but once built its likely to be fairly easy to maintain and so important economically that either it would or after a period of great disorder and weakness would quickly be restored. [At least unless possibly the new dynasty is an invader from the east but even then unifying trade and naval strength between the Med and the Red Sea/Indian Ocean would I suspect make it an attractive option for say a Persian ruler of Egypt.

Or thinking of the date was this a April's Fools entry?

Steve

 

[Saphroneth]

Given that no sign of such a canal has been found

There is some evidence of a canal joining the Nile Delta to the Red Sea - it was silted up and then reopened a couple of times before finally being closed for good in the 760s.


As for the actual CSA, I'd say that if I had leave to magic into being a reasonably cheap set of permanent fortifications for the CSA then you'd want one at the confluence of the Mataponi and the Pamunkey (where they become the York), one at White House Landing on the Pamunkey, one at the rail junction near the North Anna, one at Fredericksburg and one at the town of Rapidan north of Orange Court House.

This combination is all suppliable by rail, and (in conjunction with the fort lines that actually got built) would make an attack extremely logistically difficult. If the Confederacy also had possession of Fort Monroe it would mean there's basically no way to attack Richmond without slugging through at least two of the heavy fortifications just to open supply.

 

[steve59p]

There is some evidence of a canal joining the Nile Delta to the Red Sea - it was silted up and then reopened a couple of times before finally being closed for good in the 760s.


As for the actual CSA, I'd say that if I had leave to magic into being a reasonably cheap set of permanent fortifications for the CSA then you'd want one at the confluence of the Mataponi and the Pamunkey (where they become the York), one at White House Landing on the Pamunkey, one at the rail junction near the North Anna, one at Fredericksburg and one at the town of Rapidan north of Orange Court House.

This combination is all suppliable by rail, and (in conjunction with the fort lines that actually got built) would make an attack extremely logistically difficult. If the Confederacy also had possession of Fort Monroe it would mean there's basically no way to attack Richmond without slugging through at least two of the heavy fortifications just to open supply.

Saphroneth

True I should have mentioned the Nile-Red Sea canal. Didn't realise it was in use as late as the 760 period. However this was definitely a less ambitious system than what 5fish was talking about. I presume since it's western end was on the Nile it also had to include some locks to take it over the intervening high ground east of the river valley and then down to the sea.

Did read, a long time ago and hence could be inaccurate that in classical times they didn't realise that the Med and Indian Oceans were connected - via the Atlantic - and that some calculations mistaken thought there was a difference in their surface levels. Which might have tended to discourage an earlier attempt to establish a canal via the Sinai region, as well as the relative barrenness of parts of the region.

Steve

 

[Saphroneth]

Did read, a long time ago and hence could be inaccurate that in classical times they didn't realise that the Med and Indian Oceans were connected - via the Atlantic - and that some calculations mistaken thought there was a difference in their surface levels. Which might have tended to discourage an earlier attempt to establish a canal via the Sinai region, as well as the relative barrenness of parts of the region.

That's actually not impossible. Sea level isn't level, it's a geodesic, and the Panama canal actually goes a different distance down from the upper lake to reach the sea on the Pacific side than on the Atlantic side.

True I should have mentioned the Nile-Red Sea canal. Didn't realise it was in use as late as the 760 period. However this was definitely a less ambitious system than what 5fish was talking about. I presume since it's western end was on the Nile it also had to include some locks to take it over the intervening high ground east of the river valley and then down to the sea.

Yes, it required the invention of the lock to make it viable - specifically as I recall the justification mentioned was to avoid salt water leaching into the Delta.

 

[steve59p]

That's actually not impossible. Sea level isn't level, it's a geodesic, and the Panama canal actually goes a different distance down from the upper lake to reach the sea on the Pacific side than on the Atlantic side.


Yes, it required the invention of the lock to make it viable - specifically as I recall the justification mentioned was to avoid salt water leaching into the Delta.

Good point on the 1st. On the 2nd do you mean that they considered a canal without locks? Would have thought the problem with that is that since the Red Sea is lower than the Nile at the connecting points you would have water travelling from the river to the sea. Both making the passage of ships the opposite way difficult, as against a possibly strong current and if enough water goes that way, especially in dryer periods you could have problems with drought or at least water shortages. Or do you mean that such a loss of water, while it might not cause drought means there's insufficient water pressure to stop sea water from the Med seeping into the delta. Which makes sense thinking about it. Plus a link without locks would mean some damned deep channels being dug between highland areas.

 

[Saphroneth]

Good point on the 1st. On the 2nd do you mean that they considered a canal without locks?

No, I mean they didn't try without locks for the reason that it would wreck the Delta, apparently.

That's just the appreciation I got from a quick skim of articles - it could well be that I'm mistaken!

 

[steve59p]

No, I mean they didn't try without locks for the reason that it would wreck the Delta, apparently.

That's just the appreciation I got from a quick skim of articles - it could well be that I'm mistaken!

Right, at cross purposes as that was pretty much what I was saying, although probably poorly. They considered it but decided it could be too destructive to the delta to risk it.

 

[5fish]

There is some evidence of a canal joining the Nile Delta to the Red Sea - it was silted up and then reopened a couple of times before finally being closed for good in the 760s.

I found this the Darius Canel... 500 BC...

Snippet...

A lesser known fact is that the Suez canal of today is an ancient concept. The legendary Sesostris (likely either Pharaoh Senusret II or Senusret III of the Twelfth dynasty of Egypt) may have started work on an ancient canal joining the Nile with the Red Sea (1897 BC – 1839 BC), when an irrigation channel was constructed around 1850 BC that was navigable during the flood season, leading into a dry river valley east of the Nile River Delta named Wadi Tumelat. It was called the Canal of the Pharaos. A later canal, probably incorporating a portion of the first, was constructed under the reign of Necho II around 600BC, but the only fully functional canal was engineered and completed by Darius I of Persia 500 BC.

To celebrate this achievement, Darius erected five monuments in Wadi Tumilat, named Darius the Great's Suez Inscriptions. The monuments contains texts written in Old Persian, Elamite, Babylonian and Egyptian, commemorating the opening of a canal between the Nile and the Bitter Lakes. The monument, also known as the Chalouf stele, records the construction of a forerunner of the modern Suez Canal by the Persians, a canal through Wadi Tumilat. The stated purpose of the canal was the creation of a shipping connection between the Nile and the Red Sea, between Egypt and Persia. The surviving inscriptions read:

"King Darius says: I am a Persian; setting out from Persia. I conquered Egypt. I ordered to dig this canal from the river that is called Nile and flows in Egypt, to the sea that begins in Persia. Therefore, when this canal had been dug as I had ordered, ships went from Egypt through this canal to Persia, as I had intended."

Darius the Great's Suez Inscriptions

Darius the Great's Suez Inscriptionswere texts written in Old Persian, Elamite, Babylonian and Egyptian on five monuments erected in Wadi Tumilat, commemorating the opening of a canal between the Nile and the Bitter Lakes.[1]

The best preserved of these monuments was a stele of pink granite, which was discovered by Charles de Lesseps, Ferdinand de Lesseps's son, in 1866, 30 kilometers from Suez near Kabret in Egypt. It was erected by Darius the Great, king of the Achaemenid Empire (or Persia), whose reign lasted from 522 BCE to 486 BCE. The monument, also known as the Chalouf stele (alt. Shaluf Stele), records the construction of a forerunner of the modern Suez Canal by the Persians, a canal through Wadi Tumilat, connecting the easternmost, Bubastite, branch of the Nile with Lake Timsah which was connected to the Red Sea by natural waterways.[2] The stated purpose of the canal was the creation of a shipping connection between the Nile and the Red Sea, between Egypt and Persia.

English translation:
"King Darius says: I am a Persian; setting out from Persia I conquered Egypt. I ordered to dig this canal from the river that is called Nile and flows in Egypt, to the sea that begins in Persia. Therefore, when this canal had been dug as I had ordered, ships went from Egypt through this canal to Persia, as I had intended"

 

[5fish]

It is amazing how many other great Walls of China... there is the Great Wall, Southern Great wall, other Southern Great Wall, and etc...

Here: from wiki..

The Miaojiang Great Wall (or Southern Great Wall) is a series of fortifications in Southern China. It is located in the present-day Xiangxi Autonomous Region of Tujia and Miao in the western province of Hunan, China. It is a 190-kilometre (120-mile) wall, the largest part of which is in Fenghuang County. It was built in 1554 during the Ming Dynasty to protect against the minorities in Southern China and was completed in 1662. The wall is 3 metres (9 feet 10 inches) high and 2 metres (6 feet 7 inches) wide.

Here: The wall was used for suppression ...

https://www.chinahighlights.com/fenghuang/attraction/south-great-wall.htm

The Southern Great Wall is short for the Great Wall in southern China and is famous for being the only Great Wall in southern China. It is situated in Xiangxi Autonomous Prefecture in Hunan Province. Therefore, it is called Miaojiang Great Wall (Great Wall of Miao Territory). With a total length of 190 kilometers, the Miaojiang Great Wall is situated in Fenghuang County and starts north of Xique military camp (also known as Danwu military camp) of Guzhang County in western Hunan Province and south of Tingzi Pass of Tongren City in Guizhou Province, and is mostly constructed on precipitous ridges.

In order to consolidate their power, rulers in the Ming Dynasty and the Qing Dynasty suppressed the minorities in southern China, especially the Miao ethnic group. The Southern Great Wall was a result of their suppression. For the sake of continuous ruling and suppression, the rulers came up with the evil plan of building walls and stationing troops to separate the place. They separated the Miao territory in western Hunan Province into northern and southern parts and prescribed that "the Miao ethnic group must not come out from their territory, while the Han ethnic group must not step into Miao territory". Thus, economic trade and cultural exchanges between the Han and Miao people was cut off. It was a pass consisting of blockhouses, watchtowers, sentry posts, emplacements, gates, and houses outside or near the gates, which was used to isolate and conquer the Miao ethnic group.

Here: the other Great Southern Wall...

http://ct.zj.gov.cn/en/things-to-do/southern-great-wall-linhai

Linhai City, located in the southern wing of the Yangtze River Delta economic circle, 300 km south of Shanghai and 230 km southeast of Hangzhou, is a historically significant city which is also a hot tourist destination in China. The Southern Great Wall of China is a national AAAA level tourist attraction and falls under state protection.

The structure was originally built in the Eastern Jin Dynasty (317-420) and was not finished until the Tang Dynasty (618-907). The existing wall is about 5, 000 meters long and requires about 3 hours for a throughout visit. It was built almost around the same time as the Great Wall that everyone knows about. Actually, the structure located in Linhai served as a model for the Great Wall of China, with the same architectural style and the same technique made use of once the latter was commissioned. As a defensive barrier for the city, it has also been called the Southern Great Wall of China. The Southern Great Wall of China also served another important function for the local inhabitants. Linhai would always be submerged by water due to the rainy seasons and thanks to the construction of the South Great Wall, the city was kept safe both from flood risk.

The Southern Great Wall of China situated in the high mountain ranges towards the river, offers tourists a spectacular view. The wall is so similar to the Badaling area in Beijing, that it has been nicknamed "the Badaling of Southeast China". Along the way are visible gates, fortified towers, and battlements. The wall is surrounded by Dagu Shan in the north, Jinzi Shan in the south, Lingjiang River in front, East Lake in the east. Additionally, the beautiful Ziyang Ancient Street, about 1,000 meters long, is composed entirely of ancient buildings, both in the make of wood and masonry, and give visitors a glimpse of the daily lives of ancient locals, a totally different experience compared to visiting the Great Wall in Beijing.

Here a list of other ancient Great walls in China with photos...

https://www.lonelyplanet.com/china/...ty-walls/40625c8c-8a11-5710-a052-1479d27693f4