"The Black Knight"

[Rebforever]

Not so much.

Yeah, pretty much.

 

[Deleted member 8452]

This was on the Bulletin Board in my dorm. Posted Up for Halloween.

 

[K Hale]

Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah, no. In what way would you say Ashby (who was older than Stuart) would be considered a "young Stuart"?

 

[Rebforever]

Yeah, no. In what way would you say Ashby (who was older than Stuart) would be considered a "young Stuart"?

Not so much age as experience. Asby hadn't really got started yet being a General. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Rebforever]

There weren't many cavalry commanders better than Stuart (maybe none, although Hampton and Buford came close). Ashby was personally very brave and charismatic, but could he have equalled Stuart....I doubt it.

No, we will never know. No one equaled Stuart.

 

[diane]

No, we will never know. No one equaled Stuart.

Stuart had one big advantage over Ashby and that was military training and experience. That's what enabled him to make the best use of his natural talent. That's the hindrance with Forrest, too. All three were natural born soldiers but only one had the training to take full advantage of it.

 

[Northern Light]

Stuart had one big advantage over Ashby and that was military training and experience. That's what enabled him to make the best use of his natural talent. That's the hindrance with Forrest, too. All three were natural born soldiers but only one had the training to take full advantage of it.

If nothing else, military training taught, and teaches, self-discipline and obedience to superior officers. Those qualities were often lacking in those who didn't have the benefit of such training. There is not a lot of room for independence of thought on the battlefield, except in extreme cases, where an officer is forced to use initiative when command structure has broken down.

 

[K Hale]

Not so much age as experience. Asby hadn't really got started yet being a General. Sorry for the confusion.

So why do you think he was a Stuart in the making? Or what exactly is it you're saying?

 

[James N.]

Stonewall Jackson had a lot of respect for him. Projecting something that may or may not have been is quite unfair to a soldier that was an early riser to fight and die.

http://www.shenandoahatwar.org/The-History/The-People/Turner-Ashby

Sorry - yesterday I had to cut my post short and virtually mid-sentence.

Yes, Jackson had a lot of respect for him - especially after he was dead! As Diane has already pointed out, Jackson actually tried to block his promotion to brigadier and was highly critical of him at times like Second Winchester where he virtually allowed Banks' army to escape because his men had scattered and were then useless for pursuit. As I indicated, a big part of Ashby's problem was that he was TOO loved and respected by his men, who he seemed unable to discipline when they needed and deserved it. Stuart's professionalism has already been mentioned, and he enjoyed the ability to pass on to his brigade and regimental commanders such sticky problems as discipline, enabling him to remain the unquestioned leader without seeming to be a "hard a**". Ashby would've probably been more effective if the 9th va. had been divided in two, each battalion or regiment with its own disciplinarian commander with Ashby in overall brigade command. Unfortunately, the very real possibility was that without him being in personal charge of the unit many of its members would simply have gone home!

As also mentioned previously, Ashby was at times deficient in another quality vital to a cavalry commander for either Lee or Jackson. Lee paid his highest tribute to Stuart when he said after his untimely death at Yellow Tavern, "He never brought me a false piece of information." As we've often discussed here, Stuart probably let Lee down during the Gettysburg campaign, but mainly because he removed himself from the equation, not because of an inaccurate estimation of the situation.

 

[K Hale]

Sorry - yesterday I had to cut my post short and virtually mid-sentence.

Yes, Jackson had a lot of respect for him - especially after he was dead! As Diane has already pointed out, Jackson actually tried to block his promotion to brigadier and was highly critical of him at times like Second Winchester where he virtually allowed Banks' army to escape because his men had scattered and were then useless for pursuit. As I indicated, a big part of Ashby's problem was that he was TOO loved and respected by his men, who he seemed unable to discipline when they needed and deserved it. Stuart's professionalism has already been mentioned, and he enjoyed the ability to pass on to his brigade and regimental commanders such sticky problems as discipline, enabling him to remain the unquestioned leader without seeming to be a "hard a**". Ashby would've probably been more effective if the 9th va. had been divided in two, each battalion or regiment with its own disciplinarian commander with Ashby in overall brigade command. Unfortunately, the very real possibility was that without him being in personal charge of the unit many of its members would simply have gone home!

As also mentioned previously, Ashby was at times deficient in another quality vital to a cavalry commander for either Lee or Jackson. Lee paid his highest tribute to Stuart when he said after his untimely death at Yellow Tavern, "He never brought me a false piece of information." As we've often discussed here, Stuart probably let Lee down during the Gettysburg campaign, but mainly because he removed himself from the equation, not because of an inaccurate estimation of the situation.

Lee removed Stuart from the equation. Stuart didn't remove himself.

 

[Nathanb1]

Yeah, pretty much.

Um, no. Jackson was pretty irritated about the lack of discipline and organization when Ashby died. Seems more like dying elevated him above what might have been a more problematic reputation had he lived. Stuart excelled waaaaaaaaaaay more than not.

Dead guys don't have anything to prove. Brave? Certainly. Effective? Sometimes. Unfortunately, unlike Forrest, he didn't have really capable guys to back him up (Abe Buford being my prime example. That other guy rocked.).

 

[Rebforever]

Um, no. Jackson was pretty irritated about the lack of discipline and organization when Ashby died. Seems more like dying elevated him above what might have been a more problematic reputation had he lived. Stuart excelled waaaaaaaaaaay more than not.

Dead guys don't have anything to prove. Brave? Certainly. Effective? Sometimes. Unfortunately, unlike Forrest, he didn't have really capable guys to back him up (Abe Buford being my prime example. That other guy rocked.).

He went to where Ashby was laid in rest in Port Republic and it is reported he cried like a child over his death. Nothing but good words afterwards. Stonewall used him, accepted his work for what he did but one can say that grouchy Presbyterian will gripe in order to make him a better General. Ashby did what he was expected to do to protect Stonewall and died for it.

 

[K Hale]

Um, no. Jackson was pretty irritated about the lack of discipline and organization when Ashby died. Seems more like dying elevated him above what might have been a more problematic reputation had he lived.

Kind of like Barbaro.

(Too soon?)

 

[Nathanb1]

He went to where Ashby was laid in rest in Port Republic and it is reported he cried like a child over his death. Nothing but good words afterwards. Stonewall used him, accepted his work for what he did but one can say that grouchy Presbyterian will gripe in order to make him a better General. Ashby did what he was expected to do to protect Stonewall and died for it.

I didn't say Jackson didn't personally like him or value him. I said he wasn't a young Stuart. Whole different ball game. I got pretty weepy when I saw his horse's bones in Winchester. He was cool....his brother died before him, so it was a tragedy compounded. But that doesn't make him an equal (or potential equal) to Stuart.

 

[diane]

Ashby likely, as another poster pointed out, been Virginia's version of John Hunt Morgan. The similarities are striking, actually! Morgan, too, had problems with disciplining his men - who were just as loyal to him as Ashby's were to him - had his accidents and blunders, and also did a pretty good job all told. Morgan had experience in the Mexican War as a private but Ashby had zero. Jackson, I think, could have shaped this cavalryman up but - and he knew this - there might not have been time. Forrest was an amazingly fast learner and had the good sense to surround himself with trustworthy men who knew what they were doing if he didn't! Ashby had mainly his friends and relations. But, it was very early in the war and he's another one of those we'll never know if they could cut the mustard or not.

 

[ole]

Ashby likely, as another poster pointed out, been Virginia's version of John Hunt Morgan. The similarities are striking, actually! Morgan, too, had problems with disciplining his men - who were just as loyal to him as Ashby's were to him - had his accidents and blunders, and also did a pretty good job all told. Morgan had experience in the Mexican War as a private but Ashby had zero. Jackson, I think, could have shaped this cavalryman up but - and he knew this - there might not have been time. Forrest was an amazingly fast learner and had the good sense to surround himself with trustworthy men who knew what they were doing if he didn't! Ashby had mainly his friends and relations. But, it was very early in the war and he's another one of those we'll never know if they could cut the mustard or not.

 

[5fish]

Here's a short post about Turner Ashby... I think the interesting thing is. It mention his leadership style and what Jackson liked about him and disliked about his ways... link...

http://oldjailmuseum.wordpress.com/displays/turner-ashby/

 

[diane]

Wake up, there!

 

[5fish]

Here is his last moment...

http://www.shenandoah.stonesentinels.com/Harrisonburg/Chestnut_Ridge.php

Here read the June 6th date......

http://books.google.com/books?id=sO...le of Harrisonburg, Col. Turner Ashby&f=false

Here is an engraving...

http://books.google.com/books?id=FV...le of Harrisonburg, Col. Turner Ashby&f=false

 

[Rio Bravo]

Turner Ashby had very special qualities, being incredibly brave ( charging a line of 500 Federals on his own twice & bringing about their Surrender ) and yet he had amazing Compassion ( he sat by a wounded Union Officer all through the night, taking as tender care of him as though he was a Brother ).