The Black Flag

John Hartwell

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Another great post @John Hartwell :smile: It seems Jackson, in many ways, was prophetic in understanding the nature of the war the South was to undertake, and in the understanding of his enemy (literally, considering he knew the military leaders he would contending with). He knew what the South was up against and wanted to be on the offensive from the very beginning.

There are a couple of pieces from these articles that stood out for me:

"The great error, which most of our rulers and people made in the commencement of this struggle was in preparing for a short war or no war at all" - seems like both sides had the same expectations at the start of the war - "Few saw the shape that the contest would assume, the magnitude on which it would be conducted, and the desperation that would characterize our subjugation" - desperate times call for desperate measures, and it seems the aim was indeed subjugation, ironically tied to the freeing of a people subjugated...

"the North deliberately resolved to cut open the goose that had laid the golden eggs, and therefore drew the sword" - very melodramatic. Envy of the South's bounty had a large part to play in the reasons for the war, according to Southerners perceptions

The second article goes on to call the war a "national crime", "a case of national highway robbery and murder", and a "North American invasion of the South" - the solution as proposed by Jackson was to "treat them as highway robbers and murderers" and raise the black flag, which it seems the North had already done (according to this article) by inaugurating such a war. Rather than the 'gentlemanly' war that was expected at the beginning, what transpired was a 'no holds barred' contest in which the winner took all, and Jackson may have foreseen that before anybody else...
A lot of that is just paranoid propaganda: the North wanting to "subjugate" the South by "highway robbery," oppression, and tyranny ... nonsense! Those are simply excuses the secessionist leadership used to justify of secession and war to their own people.

The threats, posturing, and political skulduggery the South had used for decades to maintain their dominance of the national government were no longer working. So many in the North who had repeatedly given in to all that, were no longer willing to do so. The North had desperately tried to keep the bullying South content with "compromises" that amounted to nothing short of cowardly surrender. Still the southern leadership wanted more. When they could no longer get what they wanted through manipulation of the democratic process, they simply rejected that process, and left the Union.

"the North deliberately resolved to cut open the goose that had laid the golden eggs, and therefore drew the sword" is the most ludicrous example of political hypocrisy of the age.

The real tragedy is that after secession, compromise was impossible. It came down to one issue: Union or disunion. There was no room for compromise -- one side or the other had to submit entirely. By firing the first shot, the South chose trial by combat ... and the judgement of the battlefield was against them.
 
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John Hartwell

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In mid-May 1875, Chicago held a grand "Soldiers' Reunion," inviting veterans from both sides to come together in fellowship and harmony. Even Jeff Davis was invited to speak! One, however, who was not made welcome was Gen. P. G. T. Beauregard.

Early in April, Gen. Frank Sherman (?) of Chicago, had accused Beauregard of advocating "the shooting of all prisoners taken under the American flag," and demanded that he not be invited to attend. In response:
bgd1.jpg
If Beauregard thought this was sufficient explanation, the Chicago Inter-Ocean of May 1 (from which issue both the enclosed articles are excerpted), has a contrary analysis:
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Quantrill of course is associated with a Black Flag, but know one is really sure about that story for a fact. it is something I could see Quantrill doing though. Now it is said and I have seen photographic proof that General Blunt carried a US flag with a two inch black border around it. It was in a old book about the Missouri Border wars. It was taken by Quantrill's men at Baxter Spring when they captured Blunt's headquarters wagons. I would be a bit surprised if Blunt did this or any other Kansas troops. Again I believe this could or would have happened in Missouri. The truth of it remains to be seen. I would think it would be foolish to carry a black flag into battle.
 
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Yes, the Russians being victorious , certainly were not brought to trial for their many war crimes.
Russians? Air Chief Marshall Sir Arthur Travers "Bomber" Harris?
Gen. Curtis LeMay? Operation Meetinghouse 9 March 1945?

Attributed to Gen. LeMay: "Killing Japanese didn't bother me very much at that time... I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.... Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspects of what he is doing. But all war is immoral and if you let that bother you, you're not a good soldier." [emphasis added[.

Very respectfully, &c.
 

Cavalry Charger

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That's Marcellus Jerome Clarke aka Sue Munday , a Kentucky Guerilla , not one of WCQ's boys.
Thanks! I think I got the info with the pic. He's also an interesting guy. You hear alot about Missouri guerillas, but not much about Kentucky guerillas. Here's something that provides a connection to Quantrill later in the war:

'Following Morgan's death on September 4, 1864, Clarke formed his own guerilla band, and returned to Kentucky in October. He raided throughout the state, killing Union soldiers and destroying supplies. His raids seemed to inspire the Louisville Journal's stories of the infamous "Sue Mundy, and caused Major Stephen B. Burbridge, military governor of Kentucky, substantial embarrassment. Combined with the fact that Clarke's gang (referred to by the Journal as "Mundy's Gang") had joined with William Quantrill's Raiders, Clarke was seen as a dangerous enemy of the Union. On the night of February 2, 1865, this joint force of Quantrill and Clarke rode into Lair Station, Kentucky and burned the railroad depot and freight cars. A week later on February 8, 1865, the guerrillas killed three soldiers, took four more prisoners, and destroyed the remnants of a wagon train.'

http://www.thefullwiki.org/Marcellus_Jerome_Clarke

Also contained in the article are his last words at the gallows, after pleading initially to be treated as a POW and not a guerilla:

'When the carriage arrived at the gallows, Clarke gave one last statement to the crowd. He said: "I am a regular Confederate soldier-not a guer[r]illa... I have served in the Army for nearly four years... I fought under General Buckner at Fort Donelson and I belonged to General Morgan's command when I entered Kentucky." His last words were "I believe in and die for the Confederate cause."] Several thousand people were estimated to have attended Clarke's execution, attracted by rumors that he was "Sue Mundy". After authorities cut Clarke's body down from the scaffold, some witnesses cut off buttons from his coat as keepsakes. Police arrested three men for fighting over his hat.

On October 29, 1865, Union authorities hung Henry Magruder behind the walls of the Louisville Military Prison. He had been allowed to heal from his wounds before being hung. Before his death, Magruder wrote his memoir and declared he was the real "Sue Mundy". Thus ended the careers of two famous Kentucky guerrillas.
'

Not sure if there is still some dispute over the Sue Mundy issue.
 

Borderruffian

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Thanks! I think I got the info with the pic. He's also an interesting guy. You hear alot about Missouri guerillas, but not much about Kentucky guerillas. Here's something that provides a connection to Quantrill later in the war:

'Following Morgan's death on September 4, 1864, Clarke formed his own guerilla band, and returned to Kentucky in October. He raided throughout the state, killing Union soldiers and destroying supplies. His raids seemed to inspire the Louisville Journal's stories of the infamous "Sue Mundy, and caused Major Stephen B. Burbridge, military governor of Kentucky, substantial embarrassment. Combined with the fact that Clarke's gang (referred to by the Journal as "Mundy's Gang") had joined with William Quantrill's Raiders, Clarke was seen as a dangerous enemy of the Union. On the night of February 2, 1865, this joint force of Quantrill and Clarke rode into Lair Station, Kentucky and burned the railroad depot and freight cars. A week later on February 8, 1865, the guerrillas killed three soldiers, took four more prisoners, and destroyed the remnants of a wagon train.'

http://www.thefullwiki.org/Marcellus_Jerome_Clarke

Also contained in the article are his last words at the gallows, after pleading initially to be treated as a POW and not a guerilla:

'When the carriage arrived at the gallows, Clarke gave one last statement to the crowd. He said: "I am a regular Confederate soldier-not a guer[r]illa... I have served in the Army for nearly four years... I fought under General Buckner at Fort Donelson and I belonged to General Morgan's command when I entered Kentucky." His last words were "I believe in and die for the Confederate cause."] Several thousand people were estimated to have attended Clarke's execution, attracted by rumors that he was "Sue Mundy". After authorities cut Clarke's body down from the scaffold, some witnesses cut off buttons from his coat as keepsakes. Police arrested three men for fighting over his hat.

On October 29, 1865, Union authorities hung Henry Magruder behind the walls of the Louisville Military Prison. He had been allowed to heal from his wounds before being hung. Before his death, Magruder wrote his memoir and declared he was the real "Sue Mundy". Thus ended the careers of two famous Kentucky guerrillas.'

Not sure if there is still some dispute over the Sue Mundy issue.
There was a Sue Munday who wrote letters to news papers in Kentucky and that may have been used as nom de plum . As an aside a Sue Munday was one of the female victims oc the KC Jail collaspe pre Lawrence.
 

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Adding to what Borderruffian said, and to derail the thread a little more, re: Sue Munday.
The Munday family lived in Little Santa Fe, Mo. which is today a subburb on the south side of Kansas City, Mo. and probably less than a mile from the Mo.-Ks. state line. Just prior to the war, one of the Monday girls (Lou Munday),married a man named Gray who was was a Confederate soldier, and they had a brother who also was in the Confederate army or rode with Quantrill, or both. By 1863, these three Munday girls were living alone, their parents having died prior to the war. In early August, Capt. William Anderson went to his home in Kansas and gathered his three sisters, and removed them to the Munday home for safe keeping. A short time later, the Federal cavalry, having received word that the Munday girls were making clothes for the guerrillias (guerrillia shirts), raided the home, and arrested the Munday women, (Susan, Mattie (Martha), and Lou Munday Gray), and the two eldest Anderson girls. The youngest Anderson girl (Janie?), being only 10 or 12 years old with nowhere to live, went to prison with her older sisters, 16 year old Mollie, and 14 year old Josephine, (who later died in the prison collapse).
 

Cavalry Charger

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Adding to what Borderruffian said, and to derail the thread a little more, re: Sue Munday.
Thanks for adding some more information on the interesting topic of Sue Munday @Booner . I honestly don't see it as a derailing of the thread as much as the completing of a picture. Many times, no one has all the pieces, and it's one of the things I value most about this site. It helps us to find the missing pieces. And we can add another piece to the puzzle. Much appreciated again.
 

archieclement

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Thanks for adding some more information on the interesting topic of Sue Munday @Booner . I honestly don't see it as a derailing of the thread as much as the completing of a picture. Many times, no one has all the pieces, and it's one of the things I value most about this site. It helps us to find the missing pieces. And we can add another piece to the puzzle. Much appreciated again.
three instances in the border war

Quantrill supposedly carried a black flag at Olathe KS according to author Donald Hale
AVE Johnson carries one at Centralia according to Frank James
During Lawrence raid they capture a black flag of Jim Lanes according to A.J. Walker
 

Cavalry Charger

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three instances in the border war

Quantrill supposedly carried a black flag at Olathe KS according to author Donald Hale
AVE Johnson carries one at Centralia according to Frank James
During Lawrence raid they capture a black flag of Jim Lanes according to A.J. Walker
Thanks for adding that Archie. Any chance you could fill out some of the details on the episodes? It would be really interesting for any of the folks following this thread.
 

archieclement

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The one most familiar with is AVE Johnson, he enters Centralia discovering the 24 shot earlier in the day. He becomes incensed and ignores warnings to go after them. According to James they had taken a black apron from town and tied it to a stick to apparently signal their intention to punish them for what had happened earlier in town.

Think Hale is referring to the flag supposedly made by a young admirer, the black flag with a Q in the corner

The AJ walker quote is in a footnote to the James account I have
 

Borderruffian

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The one most familiar with is AVE Johnson, he enters Centralia discovering the 24 shot earlier in the day. He becomes incensed and ignores warnings to go after them. According to James they had taken a black apron from town and tied it to a stick to apparently signal their intention to punish them for what had happened earlier in town.

Think Hale is referring to the flag supposedly made by a young admirer, the black flag with a Q in the corner

The AJ walker quote is in a footnote to the James account I have
Alot of the Black Flag talk is also drawn from Kit Dalton's book Under the Black Flag as far as WCQ and the other Missouri Partisans go.
Cole Younger denied ever seeing a black flag.
The Story goes that Annie Fickle of Lafeyette County made the original flag with Quantrill spelled Quantrell , who knows.
 

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