Technical question...

[Steve Hale]

..and forgive my apparent ignorance on this subject, but in the movie 'Dances With Wolves', the scene at David's Field Tennessee sees both sides wielding muskets. Spin the film on a few minutes and Lieutenant Dunbar arrives at Fort Sedgwick with brand new carbines (Winchesters?)...would this be historically accurate? Did the powers that be in the Union Command see the Souix as a bigger threat than the Confederate Army?

 

[rhp6033]

I think the time-line is off, but there seems to be an attempt within the movie to skip past a time period in which the chief character is recovering from his wound - which could have been months or more than a year. It seems that the concensus (on-line, at least) is that the battle scene is complete fiction, so nailing down that part of the time-line would be like trying to hit a black kit with a stick in a dark room, blindfolded.

As for the time-line of the repeating rifles, those with more knowledge of ACW and "Old West" weaponry can surely provide the details of which repeating rifles were available, and when. The Winchester seems to be a newer repeating rifle than that which would have been available during the ACW or shortly thereafter, although other repeating rifles were available.

It also seems, that the chief character made the transition from infantry to cavalry somewhere along the line - which might explain the access to repeating rifles earlier than would be expected of the infantry?

But remember - it's just a piece of fiction. Take it for what it's worth, and try to enjoy the movie without getting hung up on uniforms, weaponry, etc.

 

[Steve Hale]

I think the time-line is off, but there seems to be an attempt within the movie to skip past a time period in which the chief character is recovering from his wound - which could have been months or more than a year. It seems that the concensus (on-line, at least) is that the battle scene is complete fiction, so nailing down that part of the time-line would be like trying to hit a black kit with a stick in a dark room, blindfolded.

As for the time-line of the repeating rifles, those with more knowledge of ACW and "Old West" weaponry can surely provide the details of which repeating rifles were available, and when. The Winchester seems to be a newer repeating rifle than that which would have been available during the ACW or shortly thereafter, although other repeating rifles were available.

It also seems, that the chief character made the transition from infantry to cavalry somewhere along the line - which might explain the access to repeating rifles earlier than would be expected of the infantry?

But remember - it's just a piece of fiction. Take it for what it's worth, and try to enjoy the movie without getting hung up on uniforms, weaponry, etc.

No, it wasn't a poke at the film per se...just curiosity. The film stands up as a great snapshot of the age IMO.

 

[deleson1]

No, it wasn't a poke at the film per se...just curiosity. The film stands up as a great snapshot of the age IMO.

The first winchester rifle was made in 1866, one year after the war. It was a somewhat modifed henry rifle with some improvements.

 

[johan_steele]

..and forgive my apparent ignorance on this subject, but in the movie 'Dances With Wolves', the scene at David's Field Tennessee sees both sides wielding muskets. Spin the film on a few minutes and Lieutenant Dunbar arrives at Fort Sedgwick with brand new carbines (Winchesters?)...would this be historically accurate? Did the powers that be in the Union Command see the Souix as a bigger threat than the Confederate Army?

Under no circumstances should you ever watch that film w/ someone who actually speaks Lakota... the subtitles are often absolutely NOT what is being said.

 

[tmh10]

Some Union soldiers had Henry repeating rifles in the CW but they had to buy them on their own. The War Dept said the soldiers would waste too much amunition. The only reason they bought the Spencer repeating rifle was the creater of it took one to the White House and let Lincoln shoot one. He was smart and let Lincoln beat him in the shooting competion out behind the White House.

Expired Image Removed

 

[rhp6033]

So... what are the comparitive merits/demerits of the Henry vs. the Spencer?

 

[Bob Owen]

The Henry was produced in 1860-1866. An officer could purchase their own weapons of choice. The Henry in the movie is period correct for both the civil war and the Indians Wars of the plains.

 

[Bob Owen]

 

[ole]

So... what are the comparitive merits/demerits of the Henry vs. the Spencer?

For one, the Spencer was cheaper as it production had been building up.

For another, although the Henry held more rounds, the tube magazine was subject to the elements and probable subsequent fouling. Although I've not read where this was a problem, it was a design fault.

And here I'd like some correction, but I had understood that the Spencer slug had a bit more kick to it.

Last, but not least, if you wanted a Henry, you had to buy it yourself.

 

[Jantzen]

Under no circumstances should you ever watch that film w/ someone who actually speaks Lakota... the subtitles are often absolutely NOT what is being said.

You've got my attention: would love to hear examples!

 

[Republican Blues]

I may have to sit down and watch it again, but if memory serves, and that is always an iffy proposition, but in DWW, Lt Dunbar arrives for duty in the West with a Henry, and most of the Cavalry troops are carrying Sharps rifles, and its Sharps that Dunbar gives to the Lakota to fight the Pawnee. The Henry was a private purchase weapon, as has been stated above

 

[Steve Hale]

I am absolutely impressed by the level of expertise on this subject! I still regard DWW as one of my favorite films but will look at certain aspects of it through new eyes now. Thanks guys!

 

[rhp6033]

Which brings up the subject of calibre and compatability of the different rounds, and the ability of the quartermaster to carry enough of each, and know where to make it available. The Confederates weren't the only ones dealing with this issue, largly because of the attempts by individual units to equip themselves with repeating rifles of varying makes and models.

One story from Chickamaugua has the Snodgrass Hill/Ridge defended by a unit equipped with Colt repeating rifles. It bore much of the attack throughout the afternoon and early evening, being attacked by one Confederate regiment after another. Their barrells over-heated, and were cooled by the men urinating on them. Short of ammo, the regiment sent out scouts to find more, but the ammo train had already departed for Rosseville. The desperate defenders found they could fire a slightly larger calibre by attaching a bayonette which added some strength to the barrell - no mention is made of how many were injured in experimentation before finding that solution.

 

[frankconrad]

The bayonet would add no strength to the barrel, but would add leverage to the loading lever to allow them to seat the larger bullet in the chamber.