Sword id

[Sarge19k]

I have been trying to identify this sword for quite some time. It has no markings on it that I can fine. I bought it for $450 several years ago and it was advertised as unmarked union saver. I believe it's a model 1860. Can anyone shed any light on it? Thank you the blade measures approx 35 3/16..

 

[scooter748driver]

I believe it is a Model 1840.

Can you post pics of the blade just above the guard?

 

[UCVRelics]

With tha lack of the bulge in the grip it looks like a model 1840. Are there any markings?

1840

Model 1860

Model 1860

 

[scooter748driver]

Oh, welcome from the Fort Sumter and the Fredericksburg forums.

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy

 

[bobinwmass]

Definitely an 1840 style grip, lacking the Model 1860's bulge as mentioned above, but also has the tell tale 1840's wire wrapping extending all the way down the leather and under the pommel cap. Where the leather is missing and the wood exposed, you can see the smooth wood grip and cord wrap that creates the grooves for the wire wrap, a typical German trait. While you do not show a photo, the Model 1840 also typically has a flat back or spine on its blade, while the 1860 is rounded. Unfortunately, since this style saber was also used extensively in Europe, unless there are some markings for proof, it's impossible to say if it saw use in the American Civil War. But many were imported, and it is of the type used.

 

[Sarge19k]

I see what you're saying. I would agree that it is an 1840 model and not an 1860. The spine is flat and like you said the absence of the bulge in the middle of the grip tells me that it's an 1840. I thank you all for your efforts

 

[R. Porter]

So, no markings on the blade? There are some things to help narrow it down. It appears to be an enlisted saber with no decoration on the hilt, is there anything etched on the blade? If not, then you can probably say it's an enlisted man's sword. As has been indicated, the grip suggests a foreign sword; likely something German. You can go through Thillmann's cavalry sword book and narrow it down a little more. You can rule out Bleckmann because they made Model 1860 sabers, and maybe Model 1860 hilts on hybrid blades (I think I've seen one of these with a N.J. marked on it.) Boker is the other foreign manufacturer who made Model 1860 enlisted sabers. Apparently on the Boker contracts light cavalry sabers show up starting in 1864, so it is thought that any model 1840 sabers did not have the Boker name stamped on them and possibly had someone else's name. You can probably rule out French makers; is there something etched on the spine of the blade or are there single letters within an oval with crowns or stars above the letter on the ricasso? Those sorts of things show up on French made swords. The pommel also tends to look elongated from the back where the knuckle bow meets it to the front; yours doesn't look that way to me. That still leaves a bunch of German makers. Often they will have a logo on the ricasso, either some letters or an image like a knight's helmet or a bunny rabbit head. If there are no markings you can look at the guard and how the branches come off of the knuckle bow and how pointed the quillon is. These will help narrow it down to just a few. Of course that's assuming that your blade wasn't rehilted with the hilt from another manufacturer's sword. I suspect that damaged swords picked up off the battlefield or turned in by troopers after the battle were used to provide parts to make whole, functional swords. Sometimes damage to the pommel and/or underside of the counter guard or tool marks like the impression of vise jaws on the sides of the blade itself will give you a heads-up that the hilt and blade have been separate at one time. A lot more can be inferred if you provide lots of good pictures. I'm not at all an expert on these things but we have some experienced and knowledgeable people on the message board who could probably give you a little more info than you already have.

 

[Seduzal]

Welcome to CWT from the Smoky Mountain side of North Carolina. Just jump right in and enjoy. To get a better overview of these form s you can look here: https://civilwartalk.com/forums/

 

[bayonet]

There is a Gentleman named Tom in CA that does sword restoration for a very reasonable price if you want to restore the leather grip. He does amazing work. Google Sword Restoration.

 

[Story]

Or someone can be courteous enough to just post Tom Nardi's website http://swordrestorationtn.com/

 

[bayonet]

Or someone can be courteous enough to just post Tom Nardi's website http://swordrestorationtn.com/

Didn't need to when I know you would do it for me! Cut me some slack Sonny I'm getting up there in age with so much more on my mind these days. So much for easy retirement. But I can post this for you..........

 

[Sarge19k]

Thank you Mr. Porter for your information and commentary. It has absolutely no markings that I can find and as a collector of third Reich i'm pretty good at finding maker marks etc. You all have convinced me that it is a model 1840 and although I would like to think that it saw service in the United States Civil War, maybe I did maybe it didn't. As far as restorations are concerned, the saber is it in such bad shape that I feel it needs restored. 90% of the leather and 100% of the wire on the handle are present, so I probably won't be restoring it anymore than it already is. I'm one of those people that like the patina like to know that it was used etc. I also have an 1862 NCO union sword. It is well-made of course, but I was always puzzled as to why the union decided to go with that design of having a brass hilt handle with no leather on it to give the user a better grip. Of course the majority of the time it was probably used as a signaling device for troops to follow. Still a nice sword