Sumter Provocation

Hall was the Posts QM. It refers to the post 120 men, and shows a increase in stores.

Here are some of his reports.
FORT SUMTER, S. C., March 21, 1861.
Maj. R. ANDERSON, First Artillery, Commanding:
MAJOR: I have examined the commissary supplies on hand, and find them to be in kind and amount as follows, viz:
Six barrels of flour; six barrels of hard bread; three barrels of sugar; one barrel of coffee; two barrels of vinegar; twenty-six barrels of pork; one-fourth barrel of salt; one and a half barrels of rice; three boxes of candles.
I have the honor to be, very respectfully,
NORMAN J. HALL,


FORT SUMTER, S. C., April 1, 1861.
Maj. ROBERT ANDERSON, First Artillery, Commanding:
MAJOR: In compliance with your request, I have the honor to submit the following list of provisions sold to Capt. J. G. Foster, Corps of Engineers, for the subsistence of the employés in his department at this post, and have expressed the quantities in numbers of rations, viz:
Five and one-half barrels of pork-one thousand four hundred and sixty-seven rations.
Twenty barrels of flour-three thousand four hundred and eighty-five rations.
One hundred and eighty pounds hard bread-one hundred and eighty rations.
Two and one-half bushels of beans-one thousand rations.
One hundred and seventy-four pounds coffee-one thousand seven hundred and forty rations.
Seven, hundred and seventy-four pounds sugar-five thousand one hundred and sixty rations.
{p.231}
These provisions, which have necessarily been consumed by others, would have added to the time we have already been at this post subsistence for the following number of days, respectively:
Pork-Sixteen and twenty-seven-ninetieths days.
Flour and hard bread-Forty and sixty-five-ninetieths days.
Beans-Eleven and one-ninth days.
Coffee-Nineteen and one-third days.
Sugar-Fifty-seven and one-third days.
Or, with what is now on hand, at least thirty-five days of comfortable subsistence for the command, including the laundresses, who were sent away about two months ago.
I have the honor to be, very respectfully,
NORMAN J. HALL,

As i already explained his stores increased during the siege, not decreased.

Hall is showing how much longer the garrison would have stayed supplied if these stores were not eaten by the "others". He is not saying that these stores are in the fort on April 1.. Read what he says on the March 21 OR compared to that one..

"I have examined the commissary supplies on hand, and find them to be in kind and amount as follows," versus what he says on the second "In compliance with your request, I have the honor to submit the following list of provisions sold to Capt. J. G. Foster, Corps of Engineers, for the subsistence of the employés in his department at this post, and have expressed the quantities in numbers of rations" then the key phrase "These provisions, which have necessarily been consumed by others, would have added to the time we have already been at this post subsistence for the following number of days, respectively"
 
B Peach I stand by statement. In all of your incarnations here and elsewhere I have never seen you do anything but condemn the US soldier in one form or another.

You were asked to cite, not repeat your opinion.

Please prove me wrong by posting a link to me of any post where you praised a US soldier.

Not the way it works, you made a claim, support your claim that i have done as you suggest.

I'll even go so far as to include posts from your last banned incarnation.

Makeing claims you cant show to be correct again, and again is a personal attack not at all to do with the subject.

Regardless; this is not the place to air dirty laundry & I apologize to the membership at large for my intolerance of B Peach. B Peach, if you wish to continue via PM feel free.

You started with a personal public attack based on the poster, not what was posted.
I acept your apolgy however and see no need to continue in private.
 
See Foote Vol 1 for that. In addition you can find the legaly binding articles for Sumpter and Pickens:United States Government and South
Carolina officials on December 6th, 1860; and a special agreement, armistice, at Pensacola, entered into by the United States and Florida authorities on January 29th, 1861,—(both filed in United States War and Navy Departments)—by which the United States agreed not to attempt to reinforce Major Anderson, nor Fort Pickens; and South Carolina, Florida and the Confederate authorities, agreed to make no attack on Major Anderson, or Fort Pickens, while these agreements were observed.

Using the un-footed Foote as a source of a specific detail! LOL
 
Then something is definitely screwy with these commissary reports, how can Anderson and other officers say they were out of bread and on half rations on the tenth if Halls report on the 1st is accurate? Would Anderson write to Washington and say he was running short on food and knowing that it would force Lincoln to act if it wasn't true?

No they are the QM reports taken from the OR as such.http://www.simmonsgames.com/research/authors/USWarDept/ORA/OR-S1-V01-C001U.html

You still have not understood what Anderson wrote.

Wait, this report describes lists of stores sold to the Engineering department on the fort, it doesn't give a date when they were acquired..It also goes on to say that these provisions were eaten by others, civilians.. Wait.. He isn't saying that there is that much more supplies he is listing how much was consumed by these "others". Read it again, the first report is what Anderson has left, the second report is how much was sold to the enginners and then consumed...There is no gain in supplies....

No, they are two different reports, each listing the QM stores and consumption.

Foster recieved from the civilian contractor the increase of stocks, increasing from 28 days rations to 35. Of course QM reports always show increase after a delivery of one of the 4 in 10 days delivery, and a decrease if a count is made between the days of delivery.

Point is QM report of 4th March gives 28 days supplies, and first April gives 35 days.

Rather tired of giving you the same information btw.
 
Hall is showing how much longer the garrison would have stayed supplied if these stores were not eaten by the "others". He is not saying that these stores are in the fort on April 1.. Read what he says on the March 21 OR compared to that one..

"I have examined the commissary supplies on hand, and find them to be in kind and amount as follows," versus what he says on the second "In compliance with your request, I have the honor to submit the following list of provisions sold to Capt. J. G. Foster, Corps of Engineers, for the subsistence of the employés in his department at this post, and have expressed the quantities in numbers of rations" then the key phrase "These provisions, which have necessarily been consumed by others, would have added to the time we have already been at this post subsistence for the following number of days, respectively"

You asked for full refernce to the pertinate point of how much the QM said existed on 1st April, which i started with in this thread as being the case and have used it repeatidly.

"with what is now on hand, at least thirty-five days of comfortable subsistence for the command, including the laundresses, who were sent away about two months ago."
 
You asked for full refernce to the pertinate point of how much the QM said existed on 1st April, which i started with in this thread as being the case and have used it repeatidly.

"with what is now on hand, at least thirty-five days of comfortable subsistence for the command, including the laundresses, who were sent away about two months ago."

"For the command, including the laundresses" but he doesn't mention the other civilians...Which is 50% more mouths to feed..
 
The April 1, report from Hall was probably a CYA for Anderson, so he could expalin running short on food quicker then he originally told Washington..

Except he was increasing his supplies not decreasing them, and DC knew he was drawing all he required from the civilian contractor through the War Dept paying for it.
 
"For the command, including the laundresses" but he doesn't mention the other civilians...Which is 50% more mouths to feed..

Already posted for you, when they and the children were transfered to Charelston, and used the 43 civiliasns to show that even feeding them all, in addition to the forsts command, from 4th without any increase from SC, that still leaves 14 days surplus by the 15th April, using the QM reports.
 
Except he was increasing his supplies not decreasing them, and DC knew he was drawing all he required from the civilian contractor through the War Dept paying for it.

Inncorrect...
Jan 27 :
I have deferred sending in a memorandum of the commissary stores on hand. There are now here 38 barrels pork, 37 barrels flour, 13 barrels hard bread, 2 barrels beans, 1 barrel coffee, 1/2 barrel sugar, 3 barrels vinegar, 10 pounds candles, 40 pounds soap, and 3/4 barrel salt

March 21:
Six barrels of flour; six barrels of hard bread; three barrels of sugar; one barrel of coffee; two barrels of vinegar; twenty-six barrels of pork; one-fourth barrel of salt; one and a half barrels of rice; three boxes of candles

Hall is not saying on April 1 that those stores are in inventory, those were the amounts sold to the Eng. department then consumed..

If you examine the amount consumed from Jan 27 to Mar 21, it can be easly seen that they would be out of food some time in April...
 
See Foote Vol 1 for that. In addition you can find the legaly binding articles for Sumpter and Pickens:United States Government and South
Carolina officials on December 6th, 1860; and a special agreement, armistice, at Pensacola, entered into by the United States and Florida authorities on January 29th, 1861,—(both filed in United States War and Navy Departments)—by which the United States agreed not to attempt to reinforce Major Anderson, nor Fort Pickens; and South Carolina, Florida and the Confederate authorities, agreed to make no attack on Major Anderson, or Fort Pickens, while these agreements were observed.

If it's a legally binding treaty (your description) then constitutionally the Senate is mandated to ratify it by a two-thirds majority regardless of what verbal or written agreement may have taken place between Buchanan and South Carolina officials. If it ain't ratified it ain't legally binding. I shouldn't have to buy Foote to find it or search starting from god knows where at the Navy Dept or War Dept. to find it. Any discussion of this treaty and it's ratification vote should be in the Congressional records for the 36th Congress; it's not there.
 
No they are the QM reports taken from the OR as such.http://www.simmonsgames.com/research/authors/USWarDept/ORA/OR-S1-V01-C001U.html

You still have not understood what Anderson wrote.



No, they are two different reports, each listing the QM stores and consumption.

Foster recieved from the civilian contractor the increase of stocks, increasing from 28 days rations to 35. Of course QM reports always show increase after a delivery of one of the 4 in 10 days delivery, and a decrease if a count is made between the days of delivery.

Point is QM report of 4th March gives 28 days supplies, and first April gives 35 days.

Rather tired of giving you the same information btw.

Ohhhh so sorry to bother you...
 
Yes it was, and i gave it back in post 242, from Holt.

On returning from the inugriation, Lincoln was presented with this from anderson report.[4 March 1861] there came a letter from Major Anderson to John T. Morse, Jr "There were shut up in the fort together a certain number of men and a certain quantity of biscuit and of pork; when the men should have eaten the biscuit and the pork, which they would probably do in about four weeks, they would have to go away. The problem thus became direct, simple, and urgent."



Already done so twice.

No you haven't show me a communaction from Anderson to Washinton from mid March on telling them he had enough supplies and doesn't need a provisioning mission sent to him. Kind of funny that he would say that at the same time he is telling Lamon and Washinton that he will be out of provisions by mid April.
 
Already posted for you, when they and the children were transfered to Charelston, and used the 43 civiliasns to show that even feeding them all, in addition to the forsts command, from 4th without any increase from SC, that still leaves 14 days surplus by the 15th April, using the QM reports.

He doesn't say that, hes very explicit in his terms between the "others" and the garrison.. So why would he later lump them together when he mentions how many days that the garrison has left of food..
 
So once again
Numbers 90.] FORT SUMTER, S. C., April 1, 1861.

(Received A. G. O., April 4.)
Colonel L. THOMAS, Adjutant-General U. S. Army:
COLONEL: I have the honor to report that everything is still and quiet, as far as we can see, around us. The South Carolina Secretary of War has not sent the authority, asked for yesterday, to enable me to send off the discharged laborers. Having been in daily expectation, since the return of Colonel Lamon to Washington, of receiving orders to vacate this post, I have kept these men here as long as I could; but now, having nearly completed the important work of cleaning up the area, &c., I am compelled, in consequence of the small supply of provisions on hand, to discharge them. An examination of the accompanying report of the A. A. C. S. will show that the supply of provisions brought over would, had the issues been limited to my command, have lasted for a longer period than that mentioned in my letter of December 26, 1860. I have not made frequent mention of the question of our rations, because the Department was kept fully informed, from time to time, of the state of our supply. Lieutenants Talbot and Hall gave full information in reference to it when they went on, and on the 27th of January a detailed statement was sent on, from which any one in the Commissary Department could have told, knowing the number of souls in the fort, including the Engineer laborers, the exact amount on hand at any given time.*
I told Mr. Fox that if I placed the command on short allowance I could make the provisions last until after the 10th of this month; but as I have received no instructions from the Department that it was desirable I should do so, it has not been done. If the governor permits me to send off the laborers we will have rations enough to last us about one week longer.
I am, colonel, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
ROBERT ANDERSON, Major, First Artillery, Commanding.

So on half rations with troops and contractors he could last to the 10th, but with the 55 contractors sent away he could last to the 17th.. Since the contractors weren't sent away there must have been quite a shortage of food that last week...This mid April estimate for food shortage is consistent with all his latter messages to Washington and others..Its also the reason there were ships gathering to bring him supplies before that time arrived..
 
Jan 27 :
38 barrels pork:38*240*16=145920.
37 barrels flour:37*240*16=132080
13 barrels hard bread:13*240*16=48920.


March 21:
Six barrels of flour;6*240*16=23040
six barrels of hard bread6* 240*16=23040
twenty-six barrels of pork;26*240*16=99640.


25 days consumption has reduced the Jan to March levels.

Jan 27 to March 21
Pork 145920 less 99640 on hand,=46280 consumed in 25 days, 1851 a day. Gives 54 days supplies held.
Flour 132080 less 23040 on hand =109040 consumed in 25 days, 4361 a day. gives 5.2 days held.
hard bread 48920 less 23040 on hand, 25880 consumed in 25 days, 1035 a day. Gives 22 days held.

However i already covered the increase in Qm stocks, ( stocks were reduced in Dec and Jan as no supplies came in from SC) by refering to Anderson seeking and aquiring the contractor to re start redliverys of fresh veg and beef, which he achived in the following series of letters to get the War Dept to pay for it, the SC authorities to agree to it ( already entered in prior post) and the contratcor to deliver 184 pounds of fresh beef every 4 days in 10. 60 days of that beef ment 6*184=1104 pounds of beef, 17664 ounces, all for the mil as none sold to civilians, tields 294 a day or a 3 oz ration per man per day.


On January 24, 1861, Major Anderson had his grocery list made and forwarded toMr. Daniel McSweeney. FORT SUMTER, January 24, 1861.
Mr. Daniel McSweeney:
SIR:
I am directed by Major Anderson, commanding this post, toascertain whether you will furnish such fresh beef and vegetables asmay be required here; the beef upon the terms of the contract underwhich you supplied Fort Moultrie; the vegetables to be purchased byyou for us at fair market prices;
the whole to be delivered as hitherto, fourtimes in ten days, at some wharf in Charleston, for transportation to FortJohnson, where it will be received by this garrison. This arrangement, whichhas been approved by the governor of South Carolina, it is desired shall gointo effect immediately, and if you consent to it, you can send 184 pounds of fresh beef at a time, at such hour and wherever Quartermaster-General Hatch(120 Meeting street) may advise you. Of the vegetables you will be furtherdirected. Please ackuowledge the receipt of this as soon as possible, in order,if necessary, that other arrangements may be made. Respectfully, your obedient servant,T. SEYMOUR, Captain, U. S. Army. [O.R. Ser 1, Vol 1, Ch 1, p. 154]


Major Anderson wrote to his adjutant-general onJanuary 27, 1861, the message taking a few days to get to Colonel Cooper. Fort Sumter, S. C., January 27, 1861.(Received A. G. O., January 30.) Col. S. COOPER, Adjutant-General: COLONEL: I have the honor to state, in reply to your letter of the 24thinstant, that our letters, & c., are sent by boat, daily, at 12 in., to Fort Johnson in a sealed package, addressed to the postmaster in Charleston, andthat the return boat brings our mail in a package bearing the post-office seal.I am satisfied with the existing arrangement. The governor told LieutenantTalbot, when he saw him on his return from Washington, that I might, if Ichose, send up to the city for my mails, but that he thought it would not bejudicious for me to do so. * * *
I send herewith a copy of a letter written to our former beef contractorabout furnishing us with meat, & c., to which no reply has yet beenreceived
why, I am unable to ascertain; so that, up to this moment, wehave not derived the least advantage from the Charleston markets; and I canconfidently say that none of my command desire to receive anything fromthe city for which we are not to pay. Under the daily expectation of the return of Lieutenant Ball, I have deferredsending in a memorandum of the commissary stores on hand. There are nowhere 38 barrels pork, 37 barrels flour, 13 barrels hard bread, 2 barrels beans,1 barrel coffee, ½ barrel sugar, 3 barrels vinegar, 10 pounds candles, 40pounds soap, and ¾ barrel salt. You will see from this that for my presentcommand (especially after the departure of our women and children) weshall have an ample supply of pork and bread. It is a pity that myinstructions had not been complied with, which would have given us thesmall stores which are now deficient, and which we shall not object toreceiving as soon as the safety of our country will admit of our getting them.Nothing of importance to report. The Columbia is still aground in theMaffitts Channel. I am, colonel, your obedient servant, ROBERT ANDERSON,Major, First Artillery, Commanding. [O.R. Ser 1, Vol 1, Ch 1, p. 153-54] Samuel Crawford related the following, [p. 203] In his report of the 27th of January to his Government, Major Andersonreferred to the "false reports" originating "in Charleston and elsewhere"

The reason for the action of the contractor was simply that he had notbeen paid for seven months. His account was at that time over $500, andhe feared, from the condition of things, that all relations between thefort and the city might be at any moment interrupted and his moneylost. Lieutenant Hall had returned from Washington, neglecting tobring with him a treasury draft for his Department.
The contractor wasafterward paid, when he renewed his contract and resumed his dealings withthe fort. On January 28, 1861, General Totten wrote, ENGINEER DEPARTMENT,Washington, January 28, 1861. Capt. J. G. FOSTER,Corps of Engineers, Charleston, S. C.: SIR: I have the pleasure to inform you that $5,000 was remitted on Saturdaylast, the 26th instant, to the assistant treasurer at New York, to be heldsubject to your check, and that $10,000 in addition will be remitted to him,for the same purpose, today, in fulfillment of two other requisitionsheretofore issned in your favor for $5,000 each, as already advised. You willplease return to Lieutenant Gillmore, out of these funds, the $1,500 placedby him to your credit with the assistant treasurer at New York, on the 10thinstant, and he will be instructed to forward to you a proper receipt for thesame. This communication, and all subsequent letters, will be inclosed in anenvelope, sealed with red wax, impressed with the Department seal, and it isdesirable that all your future communications may be also sealed with wax,instead of the ordinary way. I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,

JOS. G. TOTTEN,Brevet Brigadier-General, and Colonel of Engineers. [O.R. Ser 1, Vol 1, Ch 1, p. 157-58] On January 31, 1861, Captain J.G. Foster wrote to General Totten,
GENERAL: I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your letterof the 28th instant, informing me that $15,000 was placed to my creditwith the assistant treasurer of the United States at New York. Thisrelieves me from my present embarrassment.
I shall, however, require$5,000 more for Fort Sumter by the end of the month of February. [O.R. Ser 1, Vol 1, Ch 1, p. 160] On January 31, 1861, Major Anderson wrote to Colonel Cooper, "No reply, as yet,from the Charleston butcher, our beef contractor. I presume that he dare not sendus any provisions, for fear that he will be regarded as a traitor to South Carolina forfurnishing comfort and aid to her enemies." It turned out that Major Anderson's worry was unwarranted, causing him to writeanother letter to Colonel Cooper. Fort Sumter S. C., January 31, 1861.(Received A. G. O., February 4.) Col. S. COOPER, Adjutant-General: COLONEL: I hasten to write this letter, to be taken to the city by my friend,the Hon. Robert N. Gourdin, to say that
the butcher has sent down asupply of fresh beef, with a note from him stating that he had notreceived my note, and that he did not, therefore, know of my order tohim to continue my supplies as when I was in Fort Moultrie. He statesthat he sends the beef today in compliance with instructions from Mr.Gourdin, who has received a letter from me, in which I had alluded tomy having written to him about it. He concluded by saying that he willcheerfully send what I require. Mr. Gourdin says that his excellency thegovernor is very desirous that we shall receive our supplies regularly,and thinks that there can be no difficulty in reference to groceries also.


Hoping in God that there can be no further difficulty of any sort in thisharbor, I am, colonel, respectfully, your obedient servant, ROBERT ANDERSON,Major, First Artillery, Commanding. [O.R. Ser 1, Vol 1, Ch 1, p. 160] Once the bills were paid, the grocery deliveries were made by Mr. DanielMcSweeney pursuant to a previously existing contract, providing for deliveriesfour times a week. For Major Anderson, and his men at Fort Sumter, the starvation crisis ended onJanuary 31, 1861. When the message reached the Adjutant General's Office onFebruary 4, 1861, the crisis was extinguished in Washington, at least untilPresident Lincoln arrived. Of the South Carolina authorities, in his message to a special session of Congress,July 4, 1861, Lincoln stated that "[t]hey knewthey were expressly notifiedthatthe giving of bread to the few brave and hungry men of the garrison, was all whichwould on that occasion be attempted…."



Robert Anderson to Samuel Cooper, Thursday, February 28, 1861 No. 58. Fort Sumter, S. C. Feby 28th, 1861. Colonel: I have the honor to report that they are continuing the work reported in mycommunication No 57. I send, herewith, Memoranda, hastily prepared, bythe officers of this command, giving their individual opinions as to thenumber of men which would be required to re-enforce us. The problem isone of considerable difficultyas the Southern Confederacy have theadvantage of knowing the intentions, even, of our Government, and are thusenabled to make suitable preparationsThese gentlemen were directed toconsider the harbour closedit is fair to consider that all of the channelswould be closed as soon as information is received of the intentions of theGovernment. I confess that I would not be willing to risk my reputation on an attempt tothrow reenforcements into this harbour, within the time for our relief rendered necessary by the by the limited supply of our provisions, and with a view of holdingpossession of the same, with a force of less than twenty thousand good and well disciplined men. Enclosed is also a sketch of the present appearance of the works onCummings Point, prepared by Capt Seymour.
Very Respectfully,Your obdt Svt.Robert AndersonMajor 1st Artillery, Commanding.
 
If it's a legally binding treaty (your description) then constitutionally the Senate is mandated to ratify it by a two-thirds majority regardless of what verbal or written agreement may have taken place between Buchanan and South Carolina officials. If it ain't ratified it ain't legally binding. I shouldn't have to buy Foote to find it or search starting from god knows where at the Navy Dept or War Dept. to find it. Any discussion of this treaty and it's ratification vote should be in the Congressional records for the 36th Congress; it's not there.
http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Treaties.htm

POTUS can enter into a treaty, that Congress never voted on it is imaterial to POTUS entering into the agrement, Congress haveing some more important issues to decide on at that moment in time. Foot works are still the most or second most sold works on the WBTS, so i naturaly thought anyone interested in the period would own a copy and be generaly aware of what the topic covers.
 

Learn About Us
►About CivilWarTalk
►Contact the Webmaster
►Meet the Staff
►Link to CivilWarTalk
Join Our Community
►Register
►Browse Forums
►View Today's Discussions
►Search the Forum
Get Help
►FAQ
►Student Guide
►Forum Rules & Etiquette
►Copyright / DMCA

     Contact Us CivilwarTalk on Facebook CivilWarTalk on YouTube CivilWarTalk on Twitter RSS Feed

Bringing the American Civil War and More to Life.
© 1999 - , CIVILWARTALK, LLC - Site Version 10.0

SlaveryTalk.com - SecessionTalk.com - CivilWarTalk.com - ReconstructionTalk.com
Back
Top