Sumter Provocation

[wilber6150]

I already posted it for you, here it is again.

19 January 1861,South Carolina Secretary of War D.F. Jamison sent the following message from the Governor to Anderson: "Sir, I am instructed by his excellency the governor to inform you that he has directed an officer of the State to procure and carry over with your mails each day to Fort Sumter such supplies of fresh meat and vegetables as you may indicate."(. D.F. Jamison to Anderson)

Anderson's response is interesting: "I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your communication of this date.... I confess I am at a loss to understand the latter part of this message, as I have not represented in any quarter that we were in need of such supplies. As commandant of a military post, I can only have my troops furnished with fresh beef in the manner prescribed by law, and I am compelled, therefore, with due thanks to his excellency, respectfully to decline his offer."( Anderson to Jamison)

Not having waited for a reply from Anderson, Secretary Jamison had arranged for "two hundred pounds of beef and a lot of vegetables" to be sent over to the fort,(Jamison to L.M. Hatch) which Anderson refused to accept. At this point, Anderson was given free access to the Charleston markets to purchase provisions at his own discretion. This amiable arrangement having been established, Anderson realized that interference from Washington would be a grave mistake and even wrote to Adjutant-General Cooper on 30 January 1861, "I do hope that no attempt will be made by our friends to throw supplies in; their doing so would do more harm than good."(Anderson to Cooper) On the seventeenth of March, Anderson indicated that he was "satisfied with the existing arrangement"(Anderson to Jamison) and on the first of April, Second Lieutenant Norman J. Hall reported to Anderson that there was "at least thirty-five days of comfortable subsistence for the command."

Whats the source of Halls statement and was he talking about just the soldiers or was he counting civilians? You need to produce the whole OR . We are missing something if a week later he said he would be out of food by mid-April..

 

[B Peach]

This was no private letter it was an offical OR to the AGO and made its way up the chain to the President..
And there was no legal ties saying what the government could or could not do to Sumter, there was a
"gentlemans agreement" but lets examine that.. The Union does nothing while the Confedercy builds up military forces and puts a ring of fire around Sumter...

Yes it was, and i gave it back in post 242, from Holt.

On returning from the inugriation, Lincoln was presented with this from anderson report.[4 March 1861] there came a letter from Major Anderson to John T. Morse, Jr "There were shut up in the fort together a certain number of men and a certain quantity of biscuit and of pork; when the men should have eaten the biscuit and the pork, which they would probably do in about four weeks, they would have to go away. The problem thus became direct, simple, and urgent."

What source do you have from Anderson saying he didn't need supplies and food? I have already posted one from him that says he did...He also told Lamon that he would be out of food by mid April..Show some OR or something from Anderson after Lincoln was in office saying that he had plenty of supplies and didn't need any resupply effort..

Already done so twice.

 

[B Peach]

This reads like a private letter? and why is it in the OR's if it is...

Beacuase thata different letter than the one i refered to, on a completly different subject matter.

 

[wilber6150]

Not so clearcut as you would have us to believe..

No. 24.] FORT SUMTER, S. C., January 27, 1861. [Received A. G. O., January 30.]

Colonel S. COOPER,
Adjutant-General: COLONEL: I have the honor to state, in reply to your letter of the 24th instant, that our letters, &c., are sent by boat, daily, at 12 m., to Fort Johnson in a sealed package, addressed to the postmaster in Charleston, and that the return boat brings our mail in a package bearing the post-office seal. I am satisfied with the existing arrangement. The governor told Lieutenant Talbot, when he saw him on his return from Washington, that I might, if I chose, send up to the city for my mails, but that he thought it would not be judicious for me to do so. I do not apprehend that there would be the slightest danger of any of my men deserting if thus employed, but think they might be insulted or maltreated. The report to which your refer, about the attempt of the men who were sent to the city to attend a murder trial to desert, is absolutely and entirely false. Lieutenant Davis [who refused to take them, though offered arms by several persons and urged to accept them] says that the
men conducted themselves with the greatest propriety, and that, although handsomely entertained, they returned perfectly sober. I have not deemed it advisable to notice in any way the false reports which have originated in Charleston and elsewhere about us. I send herewith a slip containing two such reports. Lieutenant Meade states, and I have no doubt with entire truthfulness, that he made no statement whilst absent to any person about my preferences or my opinions, either military or political, and that the inferences given in the article in the Petersburg paper were not deducible from any facts stated by him. The other article, in the Baltimore paper, stating that a boat containing three of my men was fired into from Sullivan's Island, is also entirely untrue. I cannot see the object to be attained by the circulation of such untruths. The object of one, which has been repeated more than once, that we are getting fresh provisions from the Charleston market, is apparent enough, viz, to show they are treating us courteously. But even that is not a fact. I send herewith a copy of a letter written to our former beef contractor about furnishing us with meat, &c., to which no reply has yet been received-why, I am unable to ascertain; so that, up to this moment, we have not derived the least advantage from the to this moment, we have not derived the least advantage from the Charleston markets; and I can confidently say that none of my command desire to receive anything from the city for which we are not to pay. Under the daily expectation of the return of Lieutenant Hall, I have deferred sending in a memorandum of the commissary stores on hand. There are now here 38 barrels pork, 37 barrels flour, 13 barrels hard bread, 2 barrels beans, 1 barrel coffee, 1/2 barrel sugar, 3 barrels vinegar, 10 pounds candles, 40 pounds soap, and 3/4 barrel salt. You will see from this that for my present command [especially after the departure of our women and children] we shall have an ample supply of pork and bread. It is a pity that my instructions had not been complied with, which would have given us the small stores which are now deficient, and which we shall not object to receiving as soon as the safety of our country will admit of our getting them. Nothing of importance to report. The Columbia is still aground in the Maffitt's Channel.
I am, colonel, your obedient servant,
ROBERT ANDERSON, Major, First Artillery, Commanding.

 

[B Peach]

Such as, spoilage of food stuffs, people stealing extra food, rats and varmits, foreign substances going into supplies plenty of reasons...
Where does he advise no resupply because he doesn't require it...

Hard tack does not spoil, there are very few ways that flour can spoil, slat pork can spoil but there are no acounts that any had spolied, and there are no records of any such occuring.

Your just makeing things up that did not occur, lets stick to actual events not make believe, leave that to Johan, its his area of expertise.

 

[wilber6150]

Yes it was, and i gave it back in post 242, from Holt.

On returning from the inugriation, Lincoln was presented with this from anderson report.[4 March 1861] there came a letter from Major Anderson to John T. Morse, Jr "There were shut up in the fort together a certain number of men and a certain quantity of biscuit and of pork; when the men should have eaten the biscuit and the pork, which they would probably do in about four weeks, they would have to go away. The problem thus became direct, simple, and urgent."



Already done so twice.

Did you actually read the letter he is saying he will be out of food at the beginning of April....

 

[wilber6150]

Hard tack does not spoil, there are very few ways that flour can spoil, slat pork can spoil but there are no acounts that any had spolied, and there are no records of any such occuring.

Your just makeing things up that did not occur, lets stick to actual events not make believe, leave that to Johan, its his area of expertise.

Hard tack can spoil if it gets wet and mildew and mold sets in...

 

[wilber6150]

Beacuase thata different letter than the one i refered to, on a completly different subject matter.

So again we have a letter that I posted (#308) that shows Anderson saying he will be out of food mid April...Then a letter posted by you saying the same thing...Kind of gives the you the hint that they were running low on food doesn't it?

 

[B Peach]

ROFLMAO as I said if you can post a link to a post where you praise the US soldier, I don't think you can because I don't think you have. That is what it will take for me to change my opinion. As to documentation Wilber has done a splendid job of nailing your hide to the wall w/ the words of men who were actually there. Which is all is needed, dancing and dodging on your part has not changed that.

Less humour and more facts requyired, you made a claim, "His point is that suffering soldiers of the US Army weren't really suffering. Nothing you, I or anyone else can ever say will be enough to convince him that anything bad enough can ever happen to the US soldier.", and have supported it with nothing.

Thats your documentation.

 

[Copperhead-mi]

<remainder snipped for brevity>US Government was legal bound not to reinforce with arms or supplies, as per the negoitiations to not do so.

You keep making reference to this "treaty" that the U.S. was legally bound to. Produce it please. As far as I'm aware of there never was an treaty or any other written agreement entered into between South Carolina and the United States government. My search of congressional records fails to mention any treaty that the Senate ratified during the Buchanan or Lincoln administrations with South Carolina in regards to Ft. Sumter .

 

[B Peach]

Whats the source of Halls statement and was he talking about just the soldiers or was he counting civilians? You need to produce the whole OR . We are missing something if a week later he said he would be out of food by mid-April..

Hall was the Posts QM. It refers to the post 120 men, and shows a increase in stores.

Here are some of his reports.
FORT SUMTER, S. C., March 21, 1861.
Maj. R. ANDERSON, First Artillery, Commanding:
MAJOR: I have examined the commissary supplies on hand, and find them to be in kind and amount as follows, viz:
Six barrels of flour; six barrels of hard bread; three barrels of sugar; one barrel of coffee; two barrels of vinegar; twenty-six barrels of pork; one-fourth barrel of salt; one and a half barrels of rice; three boxes of candles.
I have the honor to be, very respectfully,
NORMAN J. HALL,


FORT SUMTER, S. C., April 1, 1861.
Maj. ROBERT ANDERSON, First Artillery, Commanding:
MAJOR: In compliance with your request, I have the honor to submit the following list of provisions sold to Capt. J. G. Foster, Corps of Engineers, for the subsistence of the employés in his department at this post, and have expressed the quantities in numbers of rations, viz:
Five and one-half barrels of pork-one thousand four hundred and sixty-seven rations.
Twenty barrels of flour-three thousand four hundred and eighty-five rations.
One hundred and eighty pounds hard bread-one hundred and eighty rations.
Two and one-half bushels of beans-one thousand rations.
One hundred and seventy-four pounds coffee-one thousand seven hundred and forty rations.
Seven, hundred and seventy-four pounds sugar-five thousand one hundred and sixty rations.
{p.231}
These provisions, which have necessarily been consumed by others, would have added to the time we have already been at this post subsistence for the following number of days, respectively:
Pork-Sixteen and twenty-seven-ninetieths days.
Flour and hard bread-Forty and sixty-five-ninetieths days.
Beans-Eleven and one-ninth days.
Coffee-Nineteen and one-third days.
Sugar-Fifty-seven and one-third days.
Or, with what is now on hand, at least thirty-five days of comfortable subsistence for the command, including the laundresses, who were sent away about two months ago.
I have the honor to be, very respectfully,
NORMAN J. HALL,

As i already explained his stores increased during the siege, not decreased.

 

[B Peach]

Not so clearcut as you would have us to believe..
.

It was, your just reading this letter out of sequence, i posted where Anderson resolved these issues to his satisfaction post this time when they existed.

 

[B Peach]

Did you actually read the letter he is saying he will be out of food at the beginning of April....

I did and answered you twice on what that ment, it did not mean he was out of supplies by the start of April, when he had more stores than ever before, and no, he was not lying when he said he would be.

 

[B Peach]

Hard tack can spoil if it gets wet and mildew and mold sets in...

Which it did not.

 

[B Peach]

So again we have a letter that I posted (#308) that shows Anderson saying he will be out of food mid April...Then a letter posted by you saying the same thing...Kind of gives the you the hint that they were running low on food doesn't it?

No. QM reports show an increase not a decrease. Second letter is after the supplies are stopped. So two different sets of circumstances exist.

 

[johan_steele]

B Peach I stand by statement. In all of your incarnations here and elsewhere I have never seen you do anything but condemn the US soldier in one form or another. Please prove me wrong by posting a link to me of any post where you praised a US soldier. I'll even go so far as to include posts from your last banned incarnation.

Regardless; this is not the place to air dirty laundry & I apologize to the membership at large for my intolerance of B Peach. B Peach, if you wish to continue via PM feel free.

 

[johan_steele]

The only provocation at Ft Sumter was the existance of a US flag flying over a US garrison. How dare a nation insist on feeding the men of one of their garrisons. The CS needed a short and victorious war, they opted to use Ft Sumter as the place to start it. Tate leadership failed to take into account the resolve of the US, they failed to win the war they started and they failed as a nation in the eyes of history.

 

[B Peach]

You keep making reference to this "treaty" that the U.S. was legally bound to. Produce it please. As far as I'm aware of there never was an treaty or any other written agreement entered into between South Carolina and the United States government. My search of congressional records fails to mention any treaty that the Senate ratified during the Buchanan or Lincoln administrations with South Carolina in regards to Ft. Sumter .

See Foote Vol 1 for that. In addition you can find the legaly binding articles for Sumpter and Pickens:United States Government and South
Carolina officials on December 6th, 1860; and a special agreement, armistice, at Pensacola, entered into by the United States and Florida authorities on January 29th, 1861,—(both filed in United States War and Navy Departments)—by which the United States agreed not to attempt to reinforce Major Anderson, nor Fort Pickens; and South Carolina, Florida and the Confederate authorities, agreed to make no attack on Major Anderson, or Fort Pickens, while these agreements were observed.

 

[wilber6150]

I did and answered you twice on what that ment, it did not mean he was out of supplies by the start of April, when he had more stores than ever before, and no, he was not lying when he said he would be.

Then something is definitely screwy with these commissary reports, how can Anderson and other officers say they were out of bread and on half rations on the tenth if Halls report on the 1st is accurate? Would Anderson write to Washington and say he was running short on food and knowing that it would force Lincoln to act if it wasn't true?

Wait, this report describes lists of stores sold to the Engineering department on the fort, it doesn't give a date when they were acquired..It also goes on to say that these provisions were eaten by others, civilians.. Wait.. He isn't saying that there is that much more supplies he is listing how much was consumed by these "others". Read it again, the first report is what Anderson has left, the second report is how much was sold to the enginners and then consumed...There is no gain in supplies....

 

[wilber6150]

See Foote Vol 1 for that. In addition you can find the legaly binding articles for Sumpter and Pickens:United States Government and South
Carolina officials on December 6th, 1860; and a special agreement, armistice, at Pensacola, entered into by the United States and Florida authorities on January 29th, 1861,—(both filed in United States War and Navy Departments)—by which the United States agreed not to attempt to reinforce Major Anderson, nor Fort Pickens; and South Carolina, Florida and the Confederate authorities, agreed to make no attack on Major Anderson, or Fort Pickens, while these agreements were observed.

Inncorrect, Bragg had already considered the truce was over, end of March, when an engineering officer was transferred to Pickens..