Sumter Provocation

[wilber6150]

Actually there acounts i did not dispute, i meerly pointed out the proper context to understand them. Context being something you have no grasp of, all the reports Wilber gave are from after the 10th April.
.

Yet everything you post has to do with a report about supplies in March, there are numerious reasons that the food might not last as long as it should according to strict mathmatical calculations..So I will stick by what the men in the fort are saying...

 

[dvrmte]

Anderson reported that he would soon run out of provisions, Lincoln got ships and supplies together to bring them relief before he ran out.. There is no grand evil scheme here,they were trying to reach the fort before they went thru all their food supplies.. If the Confederates would not allow supply ships in then the fort would be wholely dependent on the goodness of the CSA, to allow them to buy food... If the Confederates wanted to stop the Fox's expedition, then all they would have had to do is just allow food to enter... Yet, they didn't.. When they received word from Lincoln the expedition was on its way, why didn't they say turn it back and we will send in food ourselfs.. That would have taken any pretext for the ships to arrive...

Remember Anderson sent back food offered by SC. He couldn't take supplies from his enemies.

 

[wilber6150]

Remember Anderson sent back food offered by SC. He couldn't take supplies from his enemies.

Do you have a source for this? I haven't heard this one..

 

[dvrmte]

Do you have a source for this? I haven't heard this one..

I thought it was posted on one of these Sumter threads.

I'm lost to be honest. I can't remember which one I read it on or if I read it during research. I'll find it though.

 

[wilber6150]

On March 24th Lamon saw they were on full rations and advised SC and Anderson that ther garrison would soon be evacuated. He passed on no idication of a shortage of rations to Scott on his return to DC.

According to Doubleday on Mar 25th Lamon was told by the officers of the fort that they would be out of food by mid April, and hey wait they were lol

 

[wilber6150]

I thought it was posted on one of these Sumter threads.

I'm lost to be honest. I can't remember which one I read it on or if I read it during research. I'll find it though.

That would be interesting, and the date at which the food was offered would be important, as it might show some light on whether he thought it might be tampered with...

 

[B Peach]

When you can post a link to a post where you have praised the US soldier perhaps I'll revise my view of you. Until then I've seen nothing from you that would revise my views toward you. Have a nice day.

Not the way it works, you made a claim, either support your claim or admit to the error of playing the poster not the content.

 

[wilber6150]

FORT SUMTER, S. C., April 1, 1861.
(Received A. G. O., April 4.)
Colonel L. THOMAS, Adjutant-General U. S. Army:
COLONEL: I have the honor to report that everything is still and quiet, as far as we can see, around us. The South Carolina Secretary of War has not sent the authority, asked for yesterday, to enable me to send off the discharged laborers. Having been in daily expectation, since the return of Colonel Lamon to Washington, of receiving orders to vacate this post, I have kept these men here as long as I could; but now, having nearly completed the important work of cleaning up the area, &c., I am compelled, in consequence of the small supply of provisions on hand, to discharge them. An examination of the accompanying report of the A. A. C. S. will show that the supply of provisions brought over would, had the issues been limited to my command, have lasted for a longer period than that mentioned in my letter of December 26, 1860. I have not made frequent mention of the question of our rations, because the Department was kept fully informed, from time to time, of the state of our supply. Lieutenants Talbot and Hall gave full information in reference to it when they went on, and on the 27th of January a detailed statement was sent on, from which any one in the Commissary Department could have told, knowing the number of souls in the fort, including the Engineer laborers, the exact amount on hand at any given time.*
I told Mr. Fox that if I placed the command on short allowance I could make the provisions last until after the 10th of this month; but as I have received no instructions from the Department that it was desirable I should do so, it has not been done. If the governor permits me to send off the laborers we will have rations enough to last us about one week longer.
I am, colonel, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
ROBERT ANDERSON, Major, First Artillery, Commanding.

To Robert Anderson

[War Department] Washington, April 4, 1861
Sir: Your letter of the 1st. inst. occasions some anxiety to the President.
On the information of Capt. Fox, he had supposed you could hold out till the 15th. inst. without any great inconvenience; and had prepared an expedition to relieve you before that period.
Hoping still that you will be able to sustain yourself till the 11th. or 12th. inst. the expedition will go forward; and, finding your flag flying, will attempt to provision you, and, in case the effort is resisted, will endeavor also to reinforce you.
You will therefore hold out if possible till the arrival of the expedition.
It is not, however, the intention of the President to subject your command to any danger or hardship beyond what, in your judgement, would be usual in military life; and he has entire confidence that you will act as becomes a patriot and a soldier, under all circumstances.
Whenever, if at all, in your judgment, to save yourself and command, a capitulation becomes a necessity, you are authorized to make it. [Respectfully SIMON CAMERON.]
[To Major Robert Anderson
U. S. Army]

There is no conspiracy here, the President was attempting to bring food to the fort before it reached a critical level..And luckily he did start early as the food level was lower then was previously estimated..

 

[B Peach]

Anderson reported that he would soon run out of provisions, Lincoln got ships and supplies together to bring them relief before he ran out..

To his friend in a private letter. To Scott and the war dept he wrote that he had no such problem as he was now drawing on the governemnt contracters provisions.

There is no grand evil scheme here,they were trying to reach the fort before they went thru all their food supplies.

Actually the plan pre existed to retake or hold all federal posts, doing so to sell to the press that they were doing so to bring food to starving men just made it easier, weapons of mass starvation if you will. No one could go through the supplies as long as the CS allowed the contractor to fullfill delivery, and that only came to pass because of the pre existing plan being put into effect.

If the Confederates would not allow supply ships in then the fort would be wholely dependent on the goodness of the CSA, to allow them to buy food...

This was a second strand to Lincolns thinking and very important as to why he acted.

If the Confederates wanted to stop the Fox's expedition, then all they would have had to do is just allow food to enter... Yet, they didn't.. When they received word from Lincoln the expedition was on its way, why didn't they say turn it back and we will send in food ourselfs.. That would have taken any pretext for the ships to arrive...

US Government was legal bound not to reinforce with arms or supplies, as per the negoitiations to not do so.

 

[B Peach]

post 268 reports from March 22 and April 1...

Which show that there was stores to last 120 men to May without any increase from the stores delivered in the 4 out of 10 days contracted delivery.

What the QM report shows its what they had, we know how many men and what rations they consumed, these show, stores increased from March to April while on full rations, the very period the relief operation to resupply was crafted to bring supplies that simply were not required.

The only reduction of stores occurs post the closeing of the contractors delivery, and half rations from the 10th onwards, all your refernces are from that period of reduction of stores, not when the choice to reinforce due to a lack of supply was drawn up.

 

[wilber6150]

To his friend in a private letter. To Scott and the war dept he wrote that he had no such problem as he was now drawing on the governemnt contracters provisions.


US Government was legal bound not to reinforce with arms or supplies, as per the negoitiations to not do so.

This was no private letter it was an offical OR to the AGO and made its way up the chain to the President..
And there was no legal ties saying what the government could or could not do to Sumter, there was a
"gentlemans agreement" but lets examine that.. The Union does nothing while the Confedercy builds up military forces and puts a ring of fire around Sumter...

What source do you have from Anderson saying he didn't need supplies and food? I have already posted one from him that says he did...He also told Lamon that he would be out of food by mid April..Show some OR or something from Anderson after Lincoln was in office saying that he had plenty of supplies and didn't need any resupply effort..

 

[dvrmte]

That would be interesting, and the date at which the food was offered would be important, as it might show some light on whether he thought it might be tampered with...

The letter is in post#259 but here is a link that has much more of the communications: http://books.google.com/books?id=5H...m=2&sqi=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false about page 144

 

[B Peach]

Yet everything you post has to do with a report about supplies in March, there are numerious reasons that the food might not last as long as it should according to strict mathmatical calculations.

Such as?.

.So I will stick by what the men in the fort are saying...

Ok, but they are not saying they are starving, they say they are short only after the 10th, and the CO advises no resupply because he does not require it.

 

[B Peach]

Do you have a source for this? I haven't heard this one..

I already posted it for you, here it is again.

19 January 1861,South Carolina Secretary of War D.F. Jamison sent the following message from the Governor to Anderson: "Sir, I am instructed by his excellency the governor to inform you that he has directed an officer of the State to procure and carry over with your mails each day to Fort Sumter such supplies of fresh meat and vegetables as you may indicate."(. D.F. Jamison to Anderson)

Anderson's response is interesting: "I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your communication of this date.... I confess I am at a loss to understand the latter part of this message, as I have not represented in any quarter that we were in need of such supplies. As commandant of a military post, I can only have my troops furnished with fresh beef in the manner prescribed by law, and I am compelled, therefore, with due thanks to his excellency, respectfully to decline his offer."( Anderson to Jamison)

Not having waited for a reply from Anderson, Secretary Jamison had arranged for "two hundred pounds of beef and a lot of vegetables" to be sent over to the fort,(Jamison to L.M. Hatch) which Anderson refused to accept. At this point, Anderson was given free access to the Charleston markets to purchase provisions at his own discretion. This amiable arrangement having been established, Anderson realized that interference from Washington would be a grave mistake and even wrote to Adjutant-General Cooper on 30 January 1861, "I do hope that no attempt will be made by our friends to throw supplies in; their doing so would do more harm than good."(Anderson to Cooper) On the seventeenth of March, Anderson indicated that he was "satisfied with the existing arrangement"(Anderson to Jamison) and on the first of April, Second Lieutenant Norman J. Hall reported to Anderson that there was "at least thirty-five days of comfortable subsistence for the command."

 

[wilber6150]

This reads like a private letter? and why is it in the OR's if it is...

FORT SUMTER, S. C., April 1, 1861.

(Received A. G. O., April 4.)
Colonel L. THOMAS, Adjutant-General U. S. Army:
COLONEL: I have the honor to report that everything is still and quiet, as far as we can see, around us. The South Carolina Secretary of War has not sent the authority, asked for yesterday, to enable me to send off the discharged laborers. Having been in daily expectation, since the return of Colonel Lamon to Washington, of receiving orders to vacate this post, I have kept these men here as long as I could; but now, having nearly completed the important work of cleaning up the area, &c., I am compelled, in consequence of the small supply of provisions on hand, to discharge them. An examination of the accompanying report of the A. A. C. S. will show that the supply of provisions brought over would, had the issues been limited to my command, have lasted for a longer period than that mentioned in my letter of December 26, 1860. I have not made frequent mention of the question of our rations, because the Department was kept fully informed, from time to time, of the state of our supply. Lieutenants Talbot and Hall gave full information in reference to it when they went on, and on the 27th of January a detailed statement was sent on, from which any one in the Commissary Department could have told, knowing the number of souls in the fort, including the Engineer laborers, the exact amount on hand at any given time.*
I told Mr. Fox that if I placed the command on short allowance I could make the provisions last until after the 10th of this month; but as I have received no instructions from the Department that it was desirable I should do so, it has not been done. If the governor permits me to send off the laborers we will have rations enough to last us about one week longer.
I am, colonel, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
ROBERT ANDERSON, Major, First Artillery, Commanding.

 

[wilber6150]

Such as?.



Ok, but they are not saying they are starving, they say they are short only after the 10th, and the CO advises no resupply because he does not require it.

Such as, spoilage of food stuffs, people stealing extra food, rats and varmits, foreign substances going into supplies plenty of reasons...
Where does he advise no resupply because he doesn't require it...

 

[B Peach]

According to Doubleday on Mar 25th Lamon was told by the officers of the fort that they would be out of food by mid April, and hey wait they were lol

Info not passed on because lammon was under the impression the fort was to be evacuated, and told them and the SC authorities so.

 

[B Peach]

There is no conspiracy here, the President was attempting to bring food to the fort before it reached a critical level..And luckily he did start early as the food level was lower then was previously estimated..

No the March QM report is 7 days lower than the April QM report, you have it exactly backwards.

 

[johan_steele]

ROFLMAO as I said if you can post a link to a post where you praise the US soldier, I don't think you can because I don't think you have. That is what it will take for me to change my opinion. As to documentation Wilber has done a splendid job of nailing your hide to the wall w/ the words of men who were actually there. Which is all is needed, dancing and dodging on your part has not changed that.

Not the way it works, you made a claim, either support your claim or admit to the error of playing the poster not the content.

 

[ole]

Oh my. Talk about smoke and mirrors.

It's quite simple: Major Anderson did not want to be resupplied because he feared that it would set off a shooting war -- which it did. And, illegal or not, he ended up feeding the workers from his supplies.

Was he lying when he told Beauregard he would have to abandon Sumter by the 15th?

He was not short of powder. What he was short of was powder bags. Many a shirt was shed to make powder bags.

Someone needs to read David Detzer's "Allegiance."

Whatever Anderson reported as having available, his men were eating nothing but salt pork on the 12th.