Sumter Provocation

[wilber6150]

He did not, the maths and QM reports show there to be no such problem before the 7th April ( Wilber made no attempt tpo explain the stocks on hand and consumption rate that show no lack of supplies), he also but forgot the latter periods, when and why. *When* was after supplies were stopped from Charleston on the 7th, in response to the relief expidition to Sumpter and Pickens. Which also answers *why*they lacked a balanced diet ( 1500 calories) from 10th to 15th April because of Lincolns actions.


http://www.scribd.com/doc/47900588/The-Starvation-Crisis-at-Fort-Sumter-in-1861-Part-1




January 19, 1861, Major Anderson gave his response: FORT SUMTER S. C., January 19, 1861Hon. D. F. JAMISON,Executive Office, Department of War: SIR: I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your communication of this date, stating that you are authorized by his excellency the governor toinform me that he has directed an officer of the State to procure and carryover with my mails each day to Fort Sumter such supplies of fresh meat andvegetables as I may indicate.
I confess that I am at a loss to understandthe latter part of this message, as I have not represented in any quarterthat we were in need of such supplies.
As commandant of a military post, Ican only have my troops furnished with fresh beef in the manner prescribedby law, and I am compelled, therefore, with due thanks to his excellency,respectfully to decline his offer. If his suggestion is based upon a right, then
I must procure the meat as we have been in the habit of doing for years,under an unexpired contract with Mr. McSweeney, a Charlestonbutcher, who would, I presume, if permitted, deliver the meat, &c., atthis fort or at Fort Johnson, at the usual periods for such delivery, fourtimes in ten days.
If the permission is founded on courtesy and civility, I amcompelled respectfully to decline accepting it, with a reiteration of mythanks for having made it in connection with this subject, I deem it notimproper respectfully to suggest that his excellency may do an act of humanity and great kindness if he will permit one of the New York steamersto stop with a lighter and take the women and children of this garrison to thatcity. The confinement within the walls of this work, and the impossibility of my having it in my power to have them furnished with the proper and usualarticles of food, will, I fear, soon produce sickness among them. Thecompliance with this request will confer a favor upon a class of persons towhom similar indulgences are always granted, even during a siege in time of actual war, and will be duly appreciated by me. I have the honor to be, very respectfully, your obedient servant,ROBERT ANDERSON,Major, First Artillery, Commanding Fort Sumter.



January 24, 1861, Major Anderson had his grocery list made and forwarded toMr. Daniel McSweeney. FORT SUMTER, January 24, 1861.
Mr. Daniel McSweeney:
SIR:
I am directed by Major Anderson, commanding this post, toascertain whether you will furnish such fresh beef and vegetables asmay be required here; the beef upon the terms of the contract underwhich you supplied Fort Moultrie; the vegetables to be purchased byyou for us at fair market prices;
the whole to be delivered as hitherto, fourtimes in ten days, at some wharf in Charleston, for transportation to FortJohnson, where it will be received by this garrison. This arrangement, whichhas been approved by the governor of South Carolina, it is desired shall gointo effect immediately, and if you consent to it, you can send 184 pounds of fresh beef at a time, at such hour and wherever Quartermaster-General Hatch(120 Meeting street) may advise you. Of the vegetables you will be furtherdirected. Please ackuowledge the receipt of this as soon as possible, in order,if necessary, that other arrangements may be made. Respectfully, your obedient servant,T. SEYMOUR, Captain, U. S. Army. [O.R. Ser 1, Vol 1, Ch 1, p. 154]




Fort Sumter S. C., January 31, 1861.(Received A. G. O., February 4.) Col. S. COOPER, Adjutant-General: COLONEL: I hasten to write this letter, to be taken to the city by my friend,the Hon. Robert N. Gourdin, to say that
the butcher has sent down asupply of fresh beef, with a note from him stating that he had notreceived my note, and that he did not, therefore, know of my order tohim to continue my supplies as when I was in Fort Moultrie. He statesthat he sends the beef today in compliance with instructions from Mr.Gourdin, who has received a letter from me, in which I had alluded tomy having written to him about it. He concluded by saying that he willcheerfully send what I require. Mr. Gourdin says that his excellency thegovernor is very desirous that we shall receive our supplies regularly,and thinks that there can be no difficulty in reference to groceries also.
Hoping in God that there can be no further difficulty of any sort in thisharbor, I am, colonel, respectfully, your obedient servant, ROBERT ANDERSON,Major, First Artillery, Commanding. [O.R. Ser 1, Vol 1, Ch 1, p. 160]


Once the bills were paid, the grocery deliveries were made by Mr. DanielMcSweeney pursuant to a previously existing contract, providing for deliveriesfour times a week. For Major Anderson, and his men at Fort Sumter, the starvation crisis ended onJanuary 31, 1861.

Delivering the bread was the business of Mr. Daniel McSweeney, four days a week, pursuant to a contract with the UnitedStates government

And when did these delieveries stop? You are using reports from months before April to show that he had food, while doing nothing to discount the reports of the men that were there...A lot of things could have happened to the food supply in the months since those reports were created.. Are the officers lying? Why pick out glass out of rice if they were fully provisioned? DOn't you think that men who are expecting to get attacked would have better things to do if they were fully supplied?

 

[wilber6150]

Peach, Im trying to understand the point you are attempting to make.. Is it that the relief force wasn't needed to come to Andersons assistance?

 

[johan_steele]

His point is that suffering soldiers of the US Army weren't really suffering. Nothing you, I or anyone else can ever say will be enough to convince him that anything bad enough can ever happen to the US soldier.

Peach, Im trying to understand the point you are attempting to make.. Is it that the relief force wasn't needed to come to Andersons assistance?

 

[B Peach]

B Peach from your source...


So again we have men getting half rations of bread on the 9th and then the men living on rice that had to have glass picked out of it on the 10th and a small amount of pork which the officers received, this doesn't show that they needed supplies? By the 13th the men would have been in a crisis and needed resupply..What day did Anderson tell the Confederates that he would have to surrander if not relieved? From the accounts it shows that he was very much telling the truth about how long he could hold out..

Yes i already posted that. You do realise that bread rations are the flour to make fresh bread from right?, the bread ration stopped being delivered to Sumpter from Charlston contractor on the 2nd April.http://www.tulane.edu/~sumter/FinalOrder/FApr2S_B.html orders reached and implemented on the 7th,
http://www.tulane.edu/~sumter/AndTheWarCame/AApr7.html

Ive already posted this more than once.

I have entered the QM report of stocks of flour present on 4th March and asked you to explain where it went, as it shows a surfite of flour supplies.

The ration was reduced to half on the 10th because Anderson was no longer allowed to provision from SC in repsonse to Lincolns sending of relief forces to Sumper and Pickens.

When the re;lief force was sent Anderson was on full rations and had told POTUS not to resuply him.

Anderson said he would surrender on the 15th unless rienforced, he did not say he would surrender because he had no food.

 

[wilber6150]

Yes i already posted that. You do realise that bread rations are the flour to make fresh bread from right?, the bread ration stopped being delivered to Sumpter from Charlston contractor on the 2nd April.http://www.tulane.edu/~sumter/FinalOrder/FApr2S_B.html orders reached and implemented on the 7th,
http://www.tulane.edu/~sumter/AndTheWarCame/AApr7.html

Ive already posted this more than once.

I have entered the QM report of stocks of flour present on 4th March and asked you to explain where it went, as it shows a surfite of flour supplies.

The ration was reduced to half on the 10th because Anderson was no longer allowed to provision from SC in repsonse to Lincolns sending of relief forces to Sumper and Pickens.

When the re;lief force was sent Anderson was on full rations and had told POTUS not to resuply him.

Anderson said he would surrender on the 15th unless rienforced, he did not say he would surrender because he had no food.

So all the officers are lying when stating they were short on rations, and Doubleday keeping a potatoe that was stepped on in order to have it to eat was what? When Lemmon arrrived at the fort and the offciers told him to make sure he told people about the conditions of their food supplies, they were just mnaking stories up? You are going by a report that was two months old...

 

[wilber6150]

From Beauregard's report

At 11 p.m. I sent my aides with a communication to Major Anderson based on the foregoing instructions.* It was placed in his hands at 12.45 a.m. 12th instant. He expressed his willingness to evacuate the fort on Monday at noon if provided with the necessary means of transportation, and if he should not receive contradictory instructions from his Government or additional supplies, but he declined to agree not to open his guns upon us in the event of any hostile demonstrations on our part against his flag. This reply, which was opened and shown to my aides, plainly indicated that if instructions should be received contrary to his purpose to evacuate, or if he should receive his supplies, or if the Confederate troops should fire on hostile troops of the United States, or upon transports bearing the United States flag, containing men, munitions, and supplies designed for hostile operations against us, he would still feel himself bound to fire upon us, and to hold possession of the fort.

Anderson was telling them that he would surrender unless he got supplies, kind of weird for someone that had plenty of food...And Anderson's report to the Lincoln administration ,that took them by surprise, that he was running short of supplies another lie?

 

[B Peach]

And when did these delieveries stop? You are using reports from months before April to show that he had food, while doing nothing to discount the reports of the men that were there...A lot of things could have happened to the food supply in the months since those reports were created.. Are the officers lying? Why pick out glass out of rice if they were fully provisioned? DOn't you think that men who are expecting to get attacked would have better things to do if they were fully supplied?

It occurred to me you do not know when Sumper Garrison actually was in danger of starvation, which was back in Jan-Feb and resolved.

No i already gave you when provisions stopped, i also gave you the QM totals on hand. I gave you why the rice was used, because provision had stopped from SC. I gave you what was reduced, before then, sugar and coffee. No they were not lying, but your not understanding very well what they are saying in context of *why* they are saying it.

All you have provided is acounts from after the CS stopped provisons from reaching the Fort, when the relavent point in time is before then when Lincoln sent relief of supplies only to starving men. I pointed out those starving men at that time were on full rations, drawing whatever they wanted from Charlston with SC government and the USA War Dept placeing funds to purchase it at Anderson disposal ($10,000).


You are misrepresenting the timeline by claiming 1500 calories and half rations from 10th onwards means that when lincoln sent orders to relieve the starving men, is valid, it is not, when the reielf expedition was assembled and ordered to SC, the garriosn was on full rations and drawing whatever it required from the contractor who supplied them at Moultrie, no one straved at Moutrie and the same procurement contract meerly supplied them at Sumpter. What changed was lincolns sending of a supply force to supply people not in need of supplies, but would become so, by that action when they cut off suppllies in response to the intended relief.

You keep asking if the officer are lying, just because you dont comprehend what they say, does not make them liars.

Anderson gave an ambiguous reply that he would evacuate on April 15th, but only if not threatened, fired upon, ordered to stay or resupplied. He added that he would be starved out in a few days in any event. He had already told the SC authorities on the 2nd April that he had only a weeks supplies left. While not being completly correct he was not dilberatly being dishonest,

 

[wilber6150]

CHARLESTON, March 22, 1861.
General L. P. WALKER:
Special messenger from General Scott to learn Anderson's condition arrived last evening. Went back last night. Reports Anderson nearly out fuel and provisions. All my batteries will be finished and armed in two or three days. Can I have Boggs? G. T. BEAUREGARD.

Numbers 90.] FORT SUMTER, S. C., April 1, 1861.

(Received A. G. O., April 4.)
Colonel L. THOMAS, Adjutant-General U. S. Army:
COLONEL: I have the honor to report that everything is still and quiet, as far as we can see, around us. The South Carolina Secretary of War has not sent the authority, asked for yesterday, to enable me to send off the discharged laborers. Having been in daily expectation, since the return of Colonel Lamon to Washington, of receiving orders to vacate this post, I have kept these men here as long as I could; but now, having nearly completed the important work of cleaning up the area, &c., I am compelled, in consequence of the small supply of provisions on hand, to discharge them. An examination of the accompanying report of the A. A. C. S. will show that the supply of provisions brought over would, had the issues been limited to my command, have lasted for a longer period than that mentioned in my letter of December 26, 1860. I have not made frequent mention of the question of our rations, because the Department was kept fully informed, from time to time, of the state of our supply. Lieutenants Talbot and Hall gave full information in reference to it when they went on, and on the 27th of January a detailed statement was sent on, from which any one in the Commissary Department could have told, knowing the number of souls in the fort, including the Engineer laborers, the exact amount on hand at any given time.*
I told Mr. Fox that if I placed the command on short allowance I could make the provisions last until after the 10th of this month; but as I have received no instructions from the Department that it was desirable I should do so, it has not been done. If the governor permits me to send off the laborers we will have rations enough to last us about one week longer.
I am, colonel, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
ROBERT ANDERSON, Major, First Artillery, Commanding.

So according to Anderson if the laborers were sent off he could last one week longer then the 10th but guess what the Confederate authorities wouldn't allow it because they knew they were using up the fort's supplies..

 

[B Peach]

Peach, Im trying to understand the point you are attempting to make.. Is it that the relief force wasn't needed to come to Andersons assistance?

In a nutshell, the Garriosn required no resupply as it was drawing all it required from existing contract to supply it, all that had changed was where the end user consumed it.

Lincoln had set out back in Dec to retake and hold all federal posts, he simply found it easier to claim the garrison was starving to sell his chosen plan of action, his own cabinet having only 1 vote for it and the rest against it.

By the 10th shortages did exist on what was consumed, ( but not acording to the QM reports of what is in store) but only because of Lincolns actions, and the response to them being the ending of supplies from Charleston, but even then it was not starvation level.

 

[B Peach]

His point is that suffering soldiers of the US Army weren't really suffering. Nothing you, I or anyone else can ever say will be enough to convince him that anything bad enough can ever happen to the US soldier.

Odd thing to post, as it has zero refernce to anything i wrote. I guess that half rations for week is bad, but then again it was also standard field punishemnet in the US army.

 

[wilber6150]

It occurred to me you do not know when Sumper Garrison actually was in danger of starvation, which was back in Jan-Feb and resolved.

No i already gave you when provisions stopped, i also gave you the QM totals on hand. I gave you why the rice was used, because provision had stopped from SC. I gave you what was reduced, before then, sugar and coffee. No they were not lying, but your not understanding very well what they are saying in context of *why* they are saying it.

All you have provided is acounts from after the CS stopped provisons from reaching the Fort, when the relavent point in time is before then when Lincoln sent relief of supplies only to starving men. I pointed out those starving men at that time were on full rations, drawing whatever they wanted from Charlston with SC government and the USA War Dept placeing funds to purchase it at Anderson disposal ($10,000).


You are misrepresenting the timeline by claiming 1500 calories and half rations from 10th onwards means that when lincoln sent orders to relieve the starving men, is valid, it is not, when the reielf expedition was assembled and ordered to SC, the garriosn was on full rations and drawing whatever it required from the contractor who supplied them at Moultrie, no one straved at Moutrie and the same procurement contract meerly supplied them at Sumpter. What changed was lincolns sending of a supply force to supply people not in need of supplies, but would become so, by that action when they cut off suppllies in response to the intended relief.

You keep asking if the officer are lying, just because you dont comprehend what they say, does not make them liars.

Anderson gave an ambiguous reply that he would evacuate on April 15th, but only if not threatened, fired upon, ordered to stay or resupplied. He added that he would be starved out in a few days in any event. He had already told the SC authorities on the 2nd April that he had only a weeks supplies left. While not being completly correct he was not dilberatly being dishonest,

So Lincoln should have waited to the men were out of food before gathering up supplies on ships to send them down there?

 

[wilber6150]

Ok, Im still trying to figure out what the heck is the point you are trying to make, is there one in here somewhere? So Anderson was wrong when he told Scott he was short on supplies in the end of March? On April 4th Anderson says he could hold out to the 10th, thats before all supplies were shut down on the 7th, so he was wrong there as well?

The Confederates were pretty convinced that he was telling the truth about the supply levels, theres not one report saying that Anderson was deceiving them..

 

[wilber6150]

Peach,
you are disregarding any reports from people that were there regarding the food condition and just relying on a couple of reports made two months before that...Why do you think it came as a suprise to the new adminastration when Anderson told them he was running short on supplies ..

 

[B Peach]

So all the officers are lying when stating they were short on rations,

No they were on half rations. Thats nothing to do with how many rations the QM has to issue.

and Doubleday keeping a potatoe that was stepped on in order to have it to eat was what?

Thats him keeping a potato.

When Lemmon arrrived at the fort and the offciers told him to make sure he told people about the conditions of their food supplies, they were just mnaking stories up?

On March 24th Lamon saw they were on full rations and advised SC and Anderson that ther garrison would soon be evacuated. He passed on no idication of a shortage of rations to Scott on his return to DC.

You are going by a report that was two months old...

You mean the QM report of 4th March?, which shows that with zero provision from SC from that time onwards, the 120 garriosn had supplies to last till May.

 

[B Peach]

From Beauregard's report



Anderson was telling them that he would surrender unless he got supplies, kind of weird for someone that had plenty of food...And Anderson's report to the Lincoln administration ,that took them by surprise, that he was running short of supplies another lie?

He had insuffiecent powder, which was why when the fireing started he retuned such a low rate of fire. Supplies means many things, not only food.

Anderson did not lie when he advised against resupply, because he did not require resupply of foodstuffs, it would help if you stopped assuming US officers lie by habit.

 

[wilber6150]

From Crawford... So once the supplies ran out, the bread would last four or five days longer..So what does it mean when the bread runs out? Im giving you quotes from men who were there who say that were short on rations and you keep trying to show they were inncorrect..What OR does Anderson ever speak of being short of powder? Hes talking about the food....

You have men picking glass out of rice to use it, you have an officer keeping an old squashed potaote to eat, yet all these men are fully supplied with food...

 

[B Peach]

So according to Anderson if the laborers were sent off he could last one week longer then the 10th but guess what the Confederate authorities wouldn't allow it because they knew they were using up the fort's supplies..

I already covered this, SC would not allow them to leave, the 80 odd who had left with the women and children when the forst was taken, left 43 who chose to stay and finsh the works, these were denied the right to leave by SC at this time, Note he has has supplies stoppedm and states on half rations he can subsist till the 10th, yet stays on full rations till the 10th, and half rations tillthe 15th, a clear contradiction, in addition i would point out Anderson refers to his QM report for De in which he states he has 5 months supplies.

 

[B Peach]

So Lincoln should have waited to the men were out of food before gathering up supplies on ships to send them down there?

No, i already pointed out there was no shortage as all requirement were serviced by existing contracts. Lincoln gave the orders to assemble on 29th March, no one was short of anything in sumpter then.

 

[wilber6150]

I told Mr. Fox that if I placed the command on short allowance I could make the provisions last until after the 10th of this month; but as I have received no instructions from the Department that it was desirable I should do so, it has not been done. If the governor permits me to send off the laborers we will have rations enough to last us about one week longer.

looks pretty clear that hes talking about food and not powder here...

 

[wilber6150]

No, i already pointed out there was no shortage as all requirement were serviced by existing contracts. Lincoln gave the orders to assemble on 29th March, no one was short of anything in sumpter then.

And what date did the memo reach the President saying that Anderson was running short on supplies? You are acting like supplies could instantly reach the fort.. The adminastration was informed by Anderson that he couldnt hold out with resupply shortly after the inaugriation, so there had to be ships gathered and plans made to get them there before the food ran out...It would be kind of late to do this once the food had already run out..