Sumter Provocation

[Savez]

Most famously Confederate Secretary of State Robert Toombs who warned Jefferson Davis against an attack on Sumter: ""Mr. President," he said, "at this time it is suicide -- murder -- and will lose us every friend in the North. You will strike a hornets' nest which extends from mountains to oceans. Millions now quiet will swarm out and sting us to death. It is not necessary. It puts us in the wrong. It will kill us!"

Great quote !

 

[liveoakgap]

Whatever chance the Confederacy ever had at attaining a lasting independence from the United States was dramatically enhanced by the reduction of Fort Sumter. Without some kind of decisive event, the Southern Confederacy was but seven States loosely entwined. President Davis did not have a lot of options. Had the lower South been allowed to have been just left alone, they and their excitement about leaving the Union would have withered. Instead, they got the Yankee invasion and the power of the Upper South and a plainly apparent concrete devil to drive them into what amount of coherence the Confederacy finally achieved....instead of seven little states with buyer's remorse as the summer of 1861 advanced.

President Davis needed Sumter more than Lincoln.

 

[brass napoleon]

Whatever chance the Confederacy ever had at attaining a lasting independence from the United States was dramatically enhanced by the reduction of Fort Sumter. Without some kind of decisive event, the Southern Confederacy was but seven States loosely entwined. President Davis did not have a lot of options. Had the lower South been allowed to have been just left alone, they and their excitement about leaving the Union would have withered.

This is true. And that's why Davis put Lincoln in a position where he had to respond. Lincoln took an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States, and that's what he did.

 

[Savez]

This is true. And that's why Davis put Lincoln in a position where he had to respond. Lincoln took an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States, and that's what he did.

LOL !!! Lincoln upheld that oath only when it was convenient.

 

[brass napoleon]

LOL !!! Lincoln upheld that oath only when it was convenient.

Lincoln upheld the Constitution throughout his Presidency. The Constitution gives the Chief Executive extraordinary powers during times of rebellion, and to preserve the Constitution Lincoln used those powers when necessary. But he always limited the scope of those powers and he always gave them back when no longer needed. When his Presidency was over the Constitution was alive and well.

If Lincoln was the tyrant that some people make him out to be, he would have ripped the Constitution to shreds and on his death Robert Lincoln would have ascended to the throne.

 

[Savez]

Lincoln upheld the Constitution throughout his Presidency. The Constitution gives the Chief Executive extraordinary powers during times of rebellion, and to preserve the Constitution Lincoln used those powers when necessary. But he always limited the scope of those powers and he always gave them back when no longer needed. When his Presidency was over the Constitution was alive and well.

If Lincoln was the tyrant that some people make him out to be, he would have ripped the Constitution to shreds and on his death Robert Lincoln would have ascended to the throne.

Habeas corpus was not restored until 1866 by the Supreme Court.

If Lincoln was the god-man people make him out to be, he wouldn't have been a politician and a trial lawyer. His actions on Fort Sumter are no better justified than Davis's. I say again, he was a shrewd politician. He was not some reluctant humble savior.

 

[OpnCoronet]

Lincoln's actions concerning Ft. Sumter, were legal in all respects. Davis' were not.

 

[Savez]

Lincoln's actions concerning Ft. Sumter, were legal in all respects. Davis' were not.

According to who or what? The Constitution Lincoln chose later to ignore?

 

[OpnCoronet]

Lincoln had the full sanction of Law and custom. It was Davis and the csa that had No legal sanction, at all.

 

[Savez]

Lincoln had the full sanction of Law and custom. It was Davis and the csa that had No legal sanction, at all.

Again, according to who/what?

 

[OpnCoronet]

According to facts of the matter.(also, history)

 

[wilber6150]

His actions on Fort Sumter are no better justified than Davis's. .

So what should he have done then, just let it go after a string of Federal facilities were all ready taken over.. The President drew a line when he took the oath of office and the Confederates stepped across it.. He never mentioned anything about trying to retrieve Federal property previously taken before he took office, but he stood firm in his oath to defend the country and its remaining Federal property in the South.. We hear this time and again "Look what Lincoln did and how dare he, and he was just asking for war"; but not one person has ever given a reasonable alternative of what he could have done.. Davis wanted war and he got one and the South reaped what they sowed...

 

[Savez]

According to facts of the matter.(also, history)

In other words, you don't have an answer?

 

[Savez]

So what should he have done then, just let it go after a string of Federal facilities were all ready taken over.. The President drew a line when he took the oath of office and the Confederates stepped across it.. He never mentioned anything about trying to retrieve Federal property previously taken before he took office, but he stood firm in his oath to defend the country and its remaining Federal property in the South.. We hear this time and again "Look what Lincoln did and how dare he, and he was just asking for war"; but not one person has ever given a reasonable alternative of what he could have done.. Davis wanted war and he got one and the South reaped what they sowed...

How do you know Davis wanted war? He didn't ask to be President of the Confederacy. If you don't think Lincoln had war fever like everybody else you're sticking your head in the sand. Lincoln was smart enough to know that avoiding war was inevitable and he successfully made the South throw the first punch.

That Federal property was in a South that was no longer part of the Union. That Federal property was on foriegn soil as far as the Davis administration was concerned. As for oaths, Lincoln also took an oath to uphold the Constitution. He didn't.

 

[Ellsworth avenger]

Whatever chance the Confederacy ever had at attaining a lasting independence from the United States was dramatically enhanced by the reduction of Fort Sumter. Without some kind of decisive event, the Southern Confederacy was but seven States loosely entwined. President Davis did not have a lot of options. Had the lower South been allowed to have been just left alone, they and their excitement about leaving the Union would have withered. Instead, they got the Yankee invasion and the power of the Upper South and a plainly apparent concrete devil to drive them into what amount of coherence the Confederacy finally achieved....instead of seven little states with buyer's remorse as the summer of 1861 advanced.

President Davis needed Sumter more than Lincoln.[/QUOTE
Looking of course with hindsight,starting the shooting war was the worst possible choice.With that fact in mind,was the new alliance that fragile?

 

[OpnCoronet]

If savez has facts that contradicts the history books, we have yet to see them.

 

[OpnCoronet]

Did Davis, really, think Ft. Sumter could be reduced, without War?

 

[wilber6150]

How do you know Davis wanted war? He didn't ask to be President of the Confederacy. If you don't think Lincoln had war fever like everybody else you're sticking your head in the sand. Lincoln was smart enough to know that avoiding war was inevitable and he successfully made the South throw the first punch.

That Federal property was in a South that was no longer part of the Union. That Federal property was on foriegn soil as far as the Davis administration was concerned. As for oaths, Lincoln also took an oath to uphold the Constitution. He didn't.

So you are saying Davis ordered the firing on Sumter to show that South Carolina wanted peaceful relations with the North.? What do you think Davis thought he was going to start with that bombardment, a dialog around a conference table? If you think that Lincoln knew war was inevitable then Davis himself must have thought that, thus knew what he was starting.. For the sake of argument even if the states did seceed from the Union and were independent countries, what then gives them the right to seize property from what then is now a foreign country without thinking a war would be produced by such actions..
In addition, you never answered the question on what do you think a proper response President Lincoln should have taken against people firing upon US troops and seizing its property..

 

[ole]

Agreed, Wilber. Davis was not unfamiliar with government and war. He knew darned well what he was starting. He had a hard choice: Get Viginia off the fence or watch the fort being finished while the Confederacy loses interest. It is my understanding that only Congress can negotiate for release of the fort. I don't think Lincoln would bother to call a special-session to hegotiate that sale. Hence, Davis had to act then or maybe never.

Ole

 

[Savez]

I never said Davis was right in what he did. I was just trying to balance out the Lincoln Lovefest. My point is that Lincoln provoked the firing and he knew what he was doing when he did it. Firing on the fort was not a good idea. But fighting was inevitable by that point in my opinion and Lincoln and Davis probably both knew it. If you disagree that is fine but the constant North good, South bad attitude on this forum gets old from time to time.

OpnCoronet,
What history books? All of them?