Star over Palm Tree Engraving

[Toast5]

Hello!

I have recently acquired this sword. It's a Solingen import as engraved at the ricasso, with mostly generic engravings (stand of arms, plants). The star over palm tree mark stands out to me though, as I've not seen it as a generic German manufacturer engraving before. While searching for it to see if it matched anything, I came across a flag on Pinterest located in the Charleston Museum, SC. The site mentioned it was, "Banner of 1st Company (A), Battalion of Artillery, part of the garrison of Fort Moultrie under the command of Captain William R. Calhoun.". The palm is very close, and even the star seems to be in the same position. I am not claiming that the sword is attributable to South Carolina, especially since it's not the type I would expect, but I figured I would check here in case anybody was more familiar with it. If anybody recognizes the marking or can offer more insight, I would really appreciate it.

Best Regards ~

 

[UCVRelics]

Interesting sword and possible SC connection. Its a German officers light cavalry saber from the mid 1800's they were imported to the US as I have seen a few that were ID one of which was a US Army Major in the Mexican War.

 

[Toast5]

Interesting sword and possible SC connection. Its a German officers light cavalry saber from the mid 1800's they were imported to the US as I have seen a few that were ID one of which was a US Army Major in the Mexican War.

Thank you for the information. Do you happen to have any link or image to the Major's sword or the name?

 

[UCVRelics]

Thank you for the information. Do you happen to have any link or image to the Major's sword or the name?

Here you go. Could you post a photo of the makers marks?

Sword | American Civil War Museum

 

[Toast5]

Here you go. Could you post a photo of the makers marks?

Sword | American Civil War Museum

I'm not with it at the moment, but I have a couple saved, but not very good, as the langets are extremely tight to the blade and I took the second picture of "Solingen" off the original post of when I bought it. Seen in the first picture, I see "Solingen" and second I can make out the "P." and "echt". I believe it's Peter Knecht.

 

[R. Porter]

I looked through my book, German Swords and Sword Makers by Bezdek and didn't see this sword. Then I looked through German Cavalry & Artillery Sword 1742 - 1918 by Janus's Jaroslawski and came up dry again. The langets suggest a time not far removed from the Napoleonic period. The bird's head pommel suggests the 1820's or later. I can't help feeling that I've seen it before, perhaps in Mexican service during the War for Texas Independence or the Mexican War.

 

[Toast5]

I looked through my book, German Swords and Sword Makers by Bezdek and didn't see this sword. Then I looked through German Cavalry & Artillery Sword 1742 - 1918 by Janus's Jaroslawski and came up dry again. The langets suggest a time not far removed from the Napoleonic period. The bird's head pommel suggests the 1820's or later. I can't help feeling that I've seen it before, perhaps in Mexican service during the War for Texas Independence or the Mexican War.

I think that idea has potential. Outside of that, it had been mentioned before potentially European colonial officer's in other forums, but I was unable to find its match elsewhere when searching under that idea, not that I rule it out completely.

 

[R. Porter]

After poking around I was able to come across a Wikipedia article on the Palmetto Regiment during the Mexican War. It showed a monument with a tree that looked similar to the one on the sword. It also listed famous members of the regiment but did not include William Ransom Calhoun.

Palmetto Regiment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I was unable to find anything military about Calhoun earlier than the Civil War, though I didn't look that hard. I did see something that suggested he was set to attend the USMA at West Point in 1846 but didn't accept the appointment.

Here's a link to the regiment's monument and medal:

THE PALMETTO REGIMENT - South Carolina in the Mexican War

 

[Toast5]

After poking around I was able to come across a Wikipedia article on the Palmetto Regiment during the Mexican War. It showed a monument with a tree that looked similar to the one on the sword. It also listed famous members of the regiment but did not include William Ransom Calhoun.

Palmetto Regiment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I was unable to find anything military about Calhoun earlier than the Civil War, though I didn't look that hard. I did see something that suggested he was set to attend the USMA at West Point in 1846 but didn't accept the appointment.

Here's a link to the regiment's monument and medal:

THE PALMETTO REGIMENT - South Carolina in the Mexican War

Thank you!

 

[Glen_C]

A pretty sword. In my opinion well past the 1818 year. Definitely for the Palmetto state. The etch is after Knecht was stamped. IMHO, Peter Knecht was a retailing exporter. One will find lots of types stamped as his wares. That Berger of Paris could import identical swords as marked P. Knecht kind of puts that in perspective. I have a file for an A.W. Spies marked 'French Napleonic' sabre and many others selling what was war supply stuff, a lot of it from English exporters, who in turn was selling the finest German line along with their Birmingham (sic) wares. The Spies piece could not have been marked so before about 1827. I am looking for a crescent hat plate at a reasonable price.

Cheers
GC

 

[Toast5]

A pretty sword. In my opinion well past the 1818 year. Definitely for the Palmetto state. The etch is after Knecht was stamped. IMHO, Peter Knecht was a retailing exporter. One will find lots of types stamped as his wares. That Berger of Paris could import identical swords as marked P. Knecht kind of puts that in perspective. I have a file for an A.W. Spies marked 'French Napleonic' sabre and many others selling what was war supply stuff, a lot of it from English exporters, who in turn was selling the finest German line along with their Birmingham (sic) wares. The Spies piece could not have been marked so before about 1827. I am looking for a crescent hat plate at a reasonable price.

View attachment 506193View attachment 506194View attachment 506195

Cheers
GC

Thank you for the information and the interesting AW Spies. I am not knowledgeable enough on the topic to say anything with assurance I don't think, but as for Peter Knecht, I do believe I have read documents citing him as a manufacturer in Solingen, and I know I have seen pieces marked "Waffenfabrik P. Knecht", which had led me to believe a maker rather than just a retailer.

 

[Glen_C]

Thank you for the information and the interesting AW Spies. I am not knowledgeable enough on the topic to say anything with assurance I don't think, but as for Peter Knecht, I do believe I have read documents citing him as a manufacturer in Solingen, and I know I have seen pieces marked "Waffenfabrik P. Knecht", which had led me to believe a maker rather than just a retailer.

Yet, your sword and many 19th century had nothing along the line of a mark 'Waffenfabrik'. Is the sword his father's or other surplus? I don't know. I did have his bio notes recently (not Bezdek) Here are some astute remarks.

'Regarding PETER KNECHT, the Knecht family was a well known group who began primarily as sword blade grinders from early 17th c., one member even engaged as such at the famed Shotley Bridge enterprise in England in 1687. By mid 18th c. they were primarily traders and dealers in blades in Solingen and many of their blades carry the 'Spanish motto' previously discussed, by 1770s. They prevailed apparently until mid 19th c.'

Temporarily Disabled

Then straight from the Wallace Collection.
'The Knecht family was known as a family that traded in blades rather than manufacturing them. It's likely this blade and hilt were assembled at sold at some point by Peter Knecht, and the blade may have been intended for the Spanish' market.

https://armthearmour.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F183553087655

'

 

[Toast5]

Yet, your sword and many 19th century had nothing along the line of a mark 'Waffenfabrik'. Is the sword his father's or other surplus? I don't know. I did have his bio notes recently (not Bezdek) Here are some astute remarks.

'Regarding PETER KNECHT, the Knecht family was a well known group who began primarily as sword blade grinders from early 17th c., one member even engaged as such at the famed Shotley Bridge enterprise in England in 1687. By mid 18th c. they were primarily traders and dealers in blades in Solingen and many of their blades carry the 'Spanish motto' previously discussed, by 1770s. They prevailed apparently until mid 19th c.'

Temporarily Disabled

Then straight from the Wallace Collection.
'The Knecht family was known as a family that traded in blades rather than manufacturing them. It's likely this blade and hilt were assembled at sold at some point by Peter Knecht, and the blade may have been intended for the Spanish' market.

https://armthearmour.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F183553087655

'

That is very interesting information. I certainly have no intention of writing it off, but also looking through google books in 19th century documents, translation of several when searching under "Peter Knecht Waffenfabrik" seems to bring up information implying that he was operating a weapons manufactory. Google translate is dubious of course, but they all seem to say similar regardless. The picture here is from a document dated 1839 called Neues allgemeines Künstler-Lexicon oder Nachrichten von dem Leben und den Werken der Maler and this was on page 73. The second picture is from page 55 of Vereinigte Frauendorfer Blätter, 1848 and I posted a picture of it in its original form for reference as well. Under a freemason's lodge book, perhaps more plainly (Mitglieder-Verzeichnis der unter Konstitution der höchstleuchtenden, hochwürdigsten Grossen Landesloge der Freimaurer von Deutschland zu Berlin arbeitenden, gesetzmäßigen, verbesserten und vollkommenen Johannis-Loge "Prinz von Preussen zu den Drei Schwertern" in Solingen 1841) on the fifth page of the document, it states: Logen-meister Knecht, Peter Kaufmann und besitzer einer (einem?) Waffenfabrik: Solingen. I don't mean to be a contrarian, as I have a great respect for the community at ethnographic arms, and I most certainly do not speak German, but the documents all still seemed to corroborate the same thing. Freely available to view as well. I will add the lodge listing as the last picture, both the translation and original. At least I believe. I always stand to be corrected and learn.

 

[Glen_C]

Very cool, thanks!

I guess what I'm getting at here is that he had never swung a hammer. A producer, the money feed. As well as an exporters of goods. I knew the mayor association but not the Freemason information. It makes sense though as influential (with his wealth). It is a situation where I personally have shifted to producers and exporters as a mindset.

For instance, we know the Weyersburg family was producing/making blades and whole swords for a long time, concurrent with the Knechts and bought the trademark from another blade making family, Wundes.

I will yield that a CEO as a swordmaker makes some sense for compiling the stuff.

How many 'trade marks' could I share for the indentical swords? More than I can count on both fingers. I am posting this definition, which may seem argumentative.

'A trademark is a unique symbol or word(s) used to represent a business or its products. Once registered, that same symbol or series of words cannot be used by any other organization, forever, as long as it remains in use and proper paperwork and fees are paid'

So highlighted are business and products.

If we look at a company like Ketland, in England, we know it was a consortium of goods from many shops.

Sorry, now I am rambling.
GC

an additional instance, England's Edward III bought his ticket into the linen armourers guild

 

[Toast5]

Very cool, thanks!

I guess what I'm getting at here is that he had never swung a hammer. A producer, the money feed. As well as an exporters of goods. I knew the mayor association but not the Freemason information. It makes sense though as influential (with his wealth). It is a situation where I personally have shifted to producers and exporters as a mindset.

For instance, we know the Weyersburg family was producing/making blades and whole swords for a long time, concurrent with the Knechts and bought the trademark from another blade making family, Wundes.

I will yield that a CEO as a swordmaker makes some sense for compiling the stuff.

How many 'trade marks' could I share for the indentical swords? More than I can count on both fingers. I am posting this definition, which may seem argumentative.

'A trademark is a unique symbol or word(s) used to represent a business or its products. Once registered, that same symbol or series of words cannot be used by any other organization, forever, as long as it remains in use and proper paperwork and fees are paid'

So highlighted are business and products.

If we look at a company like Ketland, in England, we know it was a consortium of goods from many shops.

Sorry, now I am rambling.
GC

an additional instance, England's Edward III bought his ticket into the linen armourers guild

Thank you! Oh, yes, I am not sure if he ever did any work on swords himself. I only meant to imply that I believe the company he owned employed individuals who manufactured them in his own facility rather than buying from other companies to sell (maybe he did both). The trademark point is something I had never considered though, and it's very interesting that his swords did not have one besides to be marked "P. Knecht". I don't believe I have seen any of his swords in the past with the trademarks of other company's either. Perhaps on the tang. I'm unsure.

 

[Glen_C]

Horstmann came from different roots but built his own business, I am posting a Knecht wiki. I now that has been scorned but us scholars but //I have yielded to the advance of AI. It is soon that all wiki pages may well be a true authority, Anyway, you may have to translate. I note in the first image it ends with sourcing gilt and steel fittings from London

Peter Knecht – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

 

[Toast5]

Horstmann came from different roots but built his own business, I am posting a Knecht wiki. I now that has been scorned but us scholars but //I have yielded to the advance of AI. It is soon that all wiki pages may well be a true authority, Anyway, you may have to translate. I note in the first image it ends with sourcing gilt and steel fittings from London

Peter Knecht – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

Noted as well. It also mentions below that they began to supply them. A bit of both I suppose, probably depending on what year the actual piece is.

 

[Glen_C]

Identicals let me see if I can pull this up quickly, I only pay the most attention to eagles. The same sword marked to Knecht, S&K and Berger

Thanks Shiloh for a great example. The Alsace days

Paris

S&K

That's just one instance of crossbreeding/branding. We do know that despite older history, they were both exporters of goods. It is a bit like post WWII German knives, re-branding was simply the way of the world. I see P.Knecht as an educated man with lots of early learning hats applied to his business. So who actually produced these castings? Honestly, a foundry selling to the producers. I doubt any of the three actually ran the foundry.


Cheers, anyway the lead sword is just pretty stupendous. That he married a Schimmelbusch makes perfect sense in regard to an earlier form being marked years after manufacture.

Cheers
GC (Hotspur on Vikingsword)

 

[Toast5]

Identicals let me see if I can pull this up quickly, I only pay the most attention to eagles. The same sword marked to Knecht, S&K and Berger

Thanks Shiloh for a great example. The Alsace daysView attachment 506281
View attachment 506280

ParisView attachment 506282View attachment 506283

S&K
View attachment 506284View attachment 506285View attachment 506286View attachment 506289


That's just one instance of crossbreeding/branding. We do know that despite older history, they were both exporters of goods. It is a bit like post WWII German knives, re-branding was simply the way of the world. I see P.Knecht as an educated man with lots of early learning hats applied to his business. So who actually produced these castings? Honestly, a foundry selling to the producers. I doubt any of the three actually ran the foundry.

Cheers, anyway the lead sword is just pretty stupendous.

Cheers
GC (Hotspur on Vikingsword)

Ah, I see. Thank you and great examples!