Southern Honor

[damYankee]

what do you mean by that?

I mean that the concept of honor and pride in those days, as the the lecture points out demanded that men defend their honor by dueling. Death or falling, would be the logical outcome for many....therefore, Pride goes before the Fall. It's just an old saying,
I found the lecture very interesting, we have a hard time of seeing things the way they did in those days.

 

[Drew]

You know little about me, less about my past.

You're right. I was thinking metaphorically and that "you" are the North (that includes "me.") I apologize for any hard fealings and hope you'll except that. Please keep posting.

 

[diane]

I mean that the concept of honor and pride in those days, as the the lecture points out demanded that men defend their honor by dueling. Death or falling, would be the logical outcome for many....therefore, Pride goes before the Fall. It's just an old saying,
I found the lecture very interesting, we have a hard time of seeing things the way they did in those days.

That's an interesting and valid point about pride. Where does that begin and honor end? In fact, I think more pride than honor was involved in many a decision involving secession. I also think that's where Dr Cooper missed it a bit - he points out the matter of honor concerning slaves. Sometimes it was more about pride than honor. A dirt poor drunken white loser could always square his saggy shoulders and say at least I'm not a n-word. (The slaves, though, had their pride, too. They often looked down their noses at these whites and thought they were far better!)

 

[damYankee]

You're right. I was thinking metaphorically and that "you" are the North (that includes "me.") I apologize for any hard fealings and hope you'll except that. Please keep posting.

No problem, I didn't intend a personal insult you either. Lets agree that our concept of life is much different then theirs was.

 

[dvrmte]

I have heard the argument put forth that the South is not much different from the remainder of the country. If one takes in account the concentration of Scots-Irish settelers in the South, you get a very different outcome in the dominant culture of the South. Personal honor means alot, in some cases the demand for satisfaction and the need for a second. For more on the contributions of the Scots-Irish in the South and America, might I suggest two books, the first one is The Scotch Irish, A Social History by James G. Leyburn, The University of North Carolina Press. The second book, Born Fighting How the Scots-Irish Shaped America by James Webb. Broadway Books.

I can't remember where I read it but supposedly over 90% of the Scots-Irish came South after entering the country. Thanks for the suggestions, I've skimmed(about an hour) Born Fighting in a book store.

 

[RobertP]

I can't remember where I read it but supposedly over 90% of the Scots-Irish came South after entering the country. Thanks for the suggestions, I've skimmed(about an hour) Born Fighting in a book store.

Born Fighting is a good read for us Scots-Irish, but it does bog down and get repetitive toward the end. Author James Webb starts out well but tends to paint with a very broad brush. Some of the footnoted data is very good however.

I believe the first big wave of S-I came to Pennsylvania in the first half of the 1700's. That's where mine landed. Fortunately the gggrandfather migrated south in the 1830's but there is still the bulk of that extended family in western Pa. and the Midwest. Recently I got an email from a family researcher who wanted the names of my branch of the clan who served in the CS army. She said she had found one member from a Union Cav. outfit and was working on more. So this could get interesting.

 

[dvrmte]

Born Fighting is a good read for us Scots-Irish, but it does bog down and get repetitive toward the end. Author James Webb starts out well but tends to paint with a very broad brush. Some of the footnoted data is very good however.

I believe the first big wave of S-I came to Pennsylvania in the first half of the 1700's. That's where mine landed. Fortunately the gggrandfather migrated south in the 1830's but there is still the bulk of that extended family in western Pa. and the Midwest. Recently I got an email from a family researcher who wanted the names of my branch of the clan who served in the CS army. She said she had found one member from a Union Cav. outfit and was working on more. So this could get interesting.

Most of my S-I entered the country about the mid 1700's in PA and VA, then traveled down the Great Wagon Rd. I have some Palatinate Germans and English that came over earlier, stayed briefly in the North but headed south about the mid 1700's. My wife's people follow the same pattern.

 

[RobertP]

Most of my S-I entered the country about the mid 1700's in PA and VA, then traveled down the Great Wagon Rd. I have some Palatinate Germans and English that came over earlier, stayed briefly in the North but headed south about the mid 1700's. My wife's people follow the same pattern.

Interesting. I don't know anything about German history but very recently I was trying to evaluate a flintlock pistol my father left me and the inscription on the barrel reads: "Pr Taxis Drg Regim 56I". I found one exactly like it on the web, except that one is an officer's model with a lot of mother of pearl adornment, and the description reads:

"A rare officer's pistol of the Prinz Taxis Dragoons,
Suhl, circa 1740. Round barrel with smooth bore in cal. 17 mm. Mounted brass front sight, over chamber marked "Pr. Taxis Drg. Reg:26". Flintlock with flat plate, Suhl hen marke with letter "T" below frizzen spring. Walnut stock with fine inlays of engraved ivory and tin wire (small blemishes). Finely engraved brass furniture, original wooden ramrod with brass tip. Length 52.5 cm.
Extremely rare weapon of an early Palatinate dragoon regiment, the contemporary high-quality decoration indicates a high-ranking officer's weapon.
The Palatinate dragoon regiment Max Emanuel von Thurn und Taxis was established in 1730. It took part in the Austrian war of succession as part of the Palatinate support corps and was already disintegrated in 1743."

I never have heard of the Palatinates. Who or what exactly were they?

 

[wilber6150]

I can't remember where I read it but supposedly over 90% of the Scots-Irish came South after entering the country. Thanks for the suggestions, I've skimmed(about an hour) Born Fighting in a book store.

Not sure if thats correct since there were tens of thousands in NYC and thru out upstate NY by the time of the war, and even during the 1700's they composed a great majority of the loyalist forces fighting for the King in the Rev War in NY..Most of my family and everyone they knew stayed in the area where they originally landed to live and work, there were some who left but most stayed.. My two grandmothers used to talk about the brawls between the groups and the shouts of either "hit him again hes Irish" or "hit him again hes Scotch", I find it remarkable that my parents were able to marry each other lol

 

[dvrmte]

Interesting. I don't know anything about German history but very recently I was trying to evaluate a flintlock pistol my father left me and the inscription on the barrel reads: "Pr Taxis Drg Regim 56I". I found one exactly like it on the web, except that one is an officer's model with a lot of mother of pearl adornment, and the description reads:

"A rare officer's pistol of the Prinz Taxis Dragoons,
Suhl, circa 1740. Round barrel with smooth bore in cal. 17 mm. Mounted brass front sight, over chamber marked "Pr. Taxis Drg. Reg:26". Flintlock with flat plate, Suhl hen marke with letter "T" below frizzen spring. Walnut stock with fine inlays of engraved ivory and tin wire (small blemishes). Finely engraved brass furniture, original wooden ramrod with brass tip. Length 52.5 cm.
Extremely rare weapon of an early Palatinate dragoon regiment, the contemporary high-quality decoration indicates a high-ranking officer's weapon.
The Palatinate dragoon regiment Max Emanuel von Thurn und Taxis was established in 1730. It took part in the Austrian war of succession as part of the Palatinate support corps and was already disintegrated in 1743."

I never have heard of the Palatinates. Who or what exactly were they?

Wow! I think I'd hold on to that.(Understatement of the century)

Here's a link explaining the Palatinates, my g-g-g-grandmother was a Slagle(various spellings), the only info I have on her is that her family was from Palatinate Germany and she was the prettiest woman in the NC mountains. My grandmother was a very beautiful blonde haired blue eyed woman also. I take it she took after her grandmother. Maybe that's where I got my good looks from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Palatines

 

[RobertP]

Not sure if thats correct since there were tens of thousands in NYC and thru out upstate NY by the time of the war, and even during the 1700's they composed a great majority of the loyalist forces fighting for the King in the Rev War in NY..Most of my family and everyone they knew stayed in the area where they originally landed to live and work, there were some who left but most stayed.. My two grandmothers used to talk about the brawls between the groups and the shouts of either "hit him again hes Irish" or "hit him again hes Scotch", I find it remarkable that my parents were able to marry each other lol

Will, I have read that the Scots-Irish were fervently anti English and strongly supported the Revolution. I think King George supposedly said 'it a dam* Presbyterian war' or something like it. Never heard they were loyalists .

 

[RobertP]

Wow! I think I'd hold on to that.(Understatement of the century)

Here's a link explaining the Palatinates, my g-g-g-grandmother was a Slagle(various spellings), the only info I have on her is that her family was from Palatinate Germany and she was the prettiest woman in the NC mountains. My grandmother was a very beautiful blonde haired blue eyed woman also. I take it she took after her grandmother. Maybe that's where I got my good looks from

That has to be it!

 

[wilber6150]

Will, I have read that the Scots-Irish were fervently anti English and strongly supported the Revolution. I think King George supposedly said 'it a dam* Presbyterian war' or something like it. Never heard they were loyalists .

The 84th RHE "Royal Highland Emmigrants" and many other units were composed of them, and were fierce fighters thru out the whole war..It seems from my studies that people of Dutch and non-English related decent were fighting against the Crown as they held no loyalty to it...Johnson was forced to leave his fathers William Johnson's estate when it was heard that he was arming the Scots who were around his land...Also, look at the Black Watch and the other Scottish units that fought for the Crown thru out the long struggle...

 

[dvrmte]

Not sure if thats correct since there were tens of thousands in NYC and thru out upstate NY by the time of the war, and even during the 1700's they composed a great majority of the loyalist forces fighting for the King in the Rev War in NY..Most of my family and everyone they knew stayed in the area where they originally landed to live and work, there were some who left but most stayed.. My two grandmothers used to talk about the brawls between the groups and the shouts of either "hit him again hes Irish" or "hit him again hes Scotch", I find it remarkable that my parents were able to marry each other lol

I found the info, I guess I'd read it in Born Fighting, I see that Google provided multiple hits for the author James Webb, as the source that concludes that 95% of the Scots-Irish migrated South eventually. So imagine nearly ten times the amount down here Wilber. Of course they were spread out all over the uplands of the South but they were the vast majority. I think most historians have it wrong about the reasons for Southern reactionism, many want to attribute it to slavery, I say it's the d*mn Scots-Irish influence and their notions of independence. That might explain why many of the isolated mountain folk didn't take too kindly to an overreaching CS or US government invading their homeland and telling them which side they'd fight on.

 

[diane]

Great Wagon Road? I hadn't heard of it so went to inform myself. Very interesting! My husband's Scots-Irish ancestors originated in Pennsylvania and some of them are still around the Punxsutawney area - but the Hullihens moved into West Virginia from there. Must have been on that trail! Suspect the hubby's ancestors may have been fighting each other come the Civil War...!

 

[wilber6150]

I found the info, I guess I'd read it in Born Fighting, I see that Google provided multiple hits for the author James Webb, as the source that concludes that 95% of the Scots-Irish migrated South eventually. So imagine nearly ten times the amount down here Wilber. Of course they were spread out all over the uplands of the South but they were the vast majority. I think most historians have it wrong about the reasons for Southern reactionism, many want to attribute it to slavery, I say it's the d*mn Scots-Irish influence and their notions of independence. That might explain why many of the isolated mountain folk didn't take too kindly to an overreaching CS or US government invading their homeland and telling them which side they'd fight on.

We are an independent lot aren't we lol But as I recall I think there were quite a few loyalist units from your neck of the woods composed of Scots-Irish...

 

[dvrmte]

Great Wagon Road? I hadn't heard of it so went to inform myself. Very interesting! My husband's Scots-Irish ancestors originated in Pennsylvania and some of them are still around the Punxsutawney area - but the Hullihens moved into West Virginia from there. Must have been on that trail! Suspect the hubby's ancestors may have been fighting each other come the Civil War...!

Some came down the Great Valley Road and then went through the Cumberland Gap and wound up all over the Appalachians and foothills of TN, KY, GA, AL, and MS. The Great Wagon Road went through York County, SC, and Catawba land.

Here's a map of the immigration pattern of the Southeast. Some of mine entered at Wilminton, NC and poled a raft up the Cape Fear River until they reached the Fall Line of NC. They eventually settled at the High Falls on the Deep River of NC and built a grist mill.

Expired Image Removed

 

[RobertP]

Some came down the Great Valley Road and then went through the Cumberland Gap and wound up all over the Appalachians and foothills of TN, KY, GA, AL, and MS. The Great Wagon Road went through York County, SC, and Catawba land.

Here's a map of the immigration pattern of the Southeast. Some of mine entered at Wilminton, NC and poled a raft up the Cape Fear River until they reached the Fall Line of NC. They eventually settled at the High Falls on the Deep River of NC and built a grist mill.

Expired Image Removed

Mine must've be an outlier. From western Pa. Floated down the Ohio-Mississippi to Grand Gulf.

 

[diane]

Oh, boy! This is great! The Catawba side of my family did filter into eastern Tennessee and Kentucky after the Revolution. Briton, my ggggrandfather was given land as payment for services in the war. The Catawba mixed in with the Cherokees there - still got kin back in them thar hills but I'm not going looking for 'em!

 

[wilber6150]

Mine said "had enough of boats staying here" lol