Member Review Shortened M1863?

[tubs]

Have a US M1863 Type 1 with an overall length of 50" and a barrel length of 34" and it retains all 3 barrel bands. At first glance it looks like a standard 1863, but it's 6" shorter than it should be. All the so called Cadet rifles I have seen have only 2 barrel bands. For some Bubba to cut this down and reshape the stock for all 3 bands to fit where they do is kind of remarkable to me. The stock hasn't been cut and spliced together anywhere. Has anyone seen or heard of this type of gun before? Thanks.

 

[lelliott19]

I'm intrigued. Can't wait to see what some of our firearms folks have to say. Thanks for posting!

 

[rob63]

I have heard of guns being shortened post-war for sale to military schools. The thing that seems really odd to me though is that it was done in such a way that a bayonet would not fit on it, which, to me at least, rules out it being done for a military school. The fact that it was cleaned so heavily makes it impossible to guess if the alteration was done a long time ago, or last week.

 

[Conquerordie]

I think it was just some gunsmith doing a nicer than average job on a shortened musket.

 

[bayonet]

Has it been bored out as in the rifling removed? Many after the war were shortened and bored out to be sold as shotguns for Farmers to get rid of varmints or cheap home defense. I had one many years ago but traded it away.

 

[RetiredCanuck]

I'm wondering if the barrel was turned down and the sight reattached to accept a standard socket bayonet?

 

[tubs]

I'm wondering if the barrel was turned down and the sight reattached to accept a standard socket bayonet?

No, the standard M1855 bayonet does not fit. The muzzle was not turn downed. That's how I realized it was cut down, I just picked up the bayo for it and it didn't fit.

 

[Old Soldier]

The first part of the barrel to wear out is the muzzle. Rust, wear from ramming or just a convenient way to stop a bayonet being fixed to weapons sold out of service. There were plenty available after 1865. The hammer looks like a replacement too.

 

[tubs]

The first part of the barrel to wear out is the muzzle. Rust, wear from ramming or just a convenient way to stop a bayonet being fixed to weapons sold out of service. There were plenty available after 1865. The hammer looks like a replacement too.

So, who would have done this type of work? Was it common to reshape the stock when this work was done was done?

 

[Conquerordie]

If you look at a bunch of cut down muskets, alot of times the stocks were just cut back to the first barrel band. But you also see when people or dealers try to sell a shortened musket like yours as a "artillery model". These are guns that had the stocks and bands shortened and replaced to appear as a complete shortened gun. Historically, artillery model muskets didn't exist. I think yours is one of those.

The work isn't really hard to do. I've done it on a repro Charleville musket back in my reenacting days.

 

[Old Soldier]

If you look at a bunch of cut down muskets, alot of times the stocks were just cut back to the first barrel band. But you also see when people or dealers try to sell a shortened musket like yours as a "artillery model". These are guns that had the stocks and bands shortened and replaced to appear as a complete shortened gun. Historically, artillery model muskets didn't exist. I think yours is one of those.

The work isn't really hard to do. I've done it on a repro Charleville musket back in my reenacting days.

And then again you had the Martini-Henry Artillery Carbine MkII which was a Mk II rifle cut down to 23" barrel by Enfield - for garrison artillery (always last in line).

So, who would have done this type of work? Was it common to reshape the stock when this work was done was done?

Any gunsmith could do it. Military longarms were always long and awkward to handle for the civilian market. The stock would be altered to fit, often a forshortened fore-stock too. (Look at the Martinis available.) It depended on barrel bedding - again something the local gunsmiths could do. That is why they tend to be one-offs, they were never a production item. Don't forget, before mass production, the gunsmiths made their own guns themselves, lock, stock and barrel (which is why the parts were not interchangable). Some did it better than others.

I have a Canadian Lancaster (.577 oval bore) Sapper and Miners carbine which was advertised a s a 20-bore smoothbore (highly unusual - even for a smoothbored .577 which comes out as a 22 or 23-bore.) It was cheap so I bought it. You look down the barrel and it LOOKS smoothbore. It was dirty, so I cleaned out the barrel. After about 4", the rod needed more push and then began to turn. The top 4" had been 'cleaned', the rest of the bore was still oval bore.

 

[tubs]

So, what I'm hearing here is that this was probably done after the war by some Bubba just to make it more sellable? Was this a common practice? Is there any value here with this being done? Thanks guys.

 

[Conquerordie]

It was common. There were tons of surplus muskets after the war ends. These were sold off by the government to various people. They were altered to make them more useable to civilians. They were altered in a variety of ways, one of them being yours. It wasn't a bubba job, someone took the time to do a nice job. But yes it was done after the war, and has been altered from its original condition. People probably still do these project to this day, to take a damaged gun, and make it look better or even as a shooter. Just part of the guns history.

 

[bayonet]

If you look at a bunch of cut down muskets, alot of times the stocks were just cut back to the first barrel band. But you also see when people or dealers try to sell a shortened musket like yours as a "artillery model". These are guns that had the stocks and bands shortened and replaced to appear as a complete shortened gun. Historically, artillery model muskets didn't exist. I think yours is one of those.

The work isn't really hard to do. I've done it on a repro Charleville musket back in my reenacting days.

I did the same. Was briefly part of a Rev War Dragoon reenacting outfit. I'm no gunsmith but with basic tools turned a full stock Charleville into a Cavalry shortened model.

 

[Trooper "D"]

And then again you had the Martini-Henry Artillery Carbine MkII which was a Mk II rifle cut down to 23" barrel by Enfield - for garrison artillery (always last in line).

Any gunsmith could do it. Military longarms were always long and awkward to handle for the civilian market. The stock would be altered to fit, often a forshortened fore-stock too. (Look at the Martinis available.) It depended on barrel bedding - again something the local gunsmiths could do. That is why they tend to be one-offs, they were never a production item. Don't forget, before mass production, the gunsmiths made their own guns themselves, lock, stock and barrel (which is why the parts were not interchangable). Some did it better than others.

I have a Canadian Lancaster (.577 oval bore) Sapper and Miners carbine which was advertised a s a 20-bore smoothbore (highly unusual - even for a smoothbored .577 which comes out as a 22 or 23-bore.) It was cheap so I bought it. You look down the barrel and it LOOKS smoothbore. It was dirty, so I cleaned out the barrel. After about 4", the rod needed more push and then began to turn. The top 4" had been 'cleaned', the rest of the bore was still oval bore.

The Last In Line? That must have been the service that Ronnie James Dio joined. He was always singing about being last in line.
Cheers?

 

[Old Soldier]

The Last In Line? That must have been the service that Ronnie James Dio joined. He was always singing about being last in line.
Cheers?

Apparently the Canadian garrison artillery in British Columbia were still using Sniders in 1902 before they were replaced! In Britain, garrison artillery were still using Martini-Henrys (45/577) until 1914. Not everyone got issued a carbine - the guns came first!