Shiloh Rifle...

[Private Watkins]

This rifle is marked "P.J. MALHERBE & CIE/A LIEGE" on the lock plate. The company was registered with the Liege proofhouse 1836-1869. There are also Liege proofmarks throughout along with "667" on the left barrel flat and small "67" marks on the various components. It has a triangular blade front sight and notch rear sight with two folding leaves. It has a walnut stock with dual front and mid bands and sling swivels on the center band and bottom of the butt. The left side of the butt has a cheekpiece with "USED AT THE BATTLE OF/SHILOH TENN. 1862 BY/CHAS. T. DOUGLAS/CO. H. 52D ILLS. VOLS./WAS WOUNDED BY THREE OUNCE BALLS". Corporal Charles T. Douglas of Aurora, Illinois, is listed on the roster of the 52nd Illinois Volunteer Infantry in Company H. He was discharged on July 19, 1863. Of the 500 men of the 52nd that marched into battle at Shiloh, 170 men were killed, wounded, or missing by the end and another 70 were killed or wounded in the Battle of Corinth that followed. In a contemporary newspaper account, their leader said that the men seemed unphased by bullet wounds and fought hard. Between 20,000 and 30,000 thousand Malherbe Model 1851 and 1857 "Saxon" or "Dresden" rifles were imported for the war. One Illinois colonel reportedly said: "These Belgian muskets will kick like a mule, and burst with the greatest facility. Several soldiers in our Illinois regiments have been killed in this way." He also complained that the bayonets were too soft and would "coil round the enemy, thus taking him prisoner." The Ordnance Department considered them first rate weapons.

 

[tdftdf]

Thanks for posting. Glad you described what was carved onto he stock, as I was wondering what a 'dunce' ball was ;~{

 

[Private Watkins]

One Illinois colonel reportedly said: "These Belgian muskets will kick like a mule

This would seem to be corroborated by a story told in the Regimental History of the Twenty-Fifth Missouri Infantry Volunteers, in which my gg-grandfather served, and which also fought (he also being wounded) at Shiloh. Here's the story:

At Camp Hasie, Flat Creek, every few days the men were put through the battalion drill and practiced firing at a target. The arms were the old-fashioned United States flint lock smooth bore musket and the Belgian musket... and the recoil in firing was fearful. The men had to clean, load and fire them off nearly every day. Jack Sanders, of Company E, declared he did want his shoulder bruised into a jelly holding his musket, and said to his chum, Soper, of the same company: "Let me fasten it to your back with your belt, and you get down on your hands and knees and fire it off that way." "All right," says Soper, and proceeded to put it into action. The muzzle happened to be close to Soper's ear, and when it went off nearly deafened him, and in the recoil the gun jumped back and sideways, just missing Sander's shins and sending Soper sprawling over sideways.
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[Jobe Holiday]

The word in question is "ounce", as in each ball he was wounded with weighed an ounce apiece.
J.

 

[Private Watkins]

The word in question is "ounce", as in each ball he was wounded with weighed an ounce apiece.
J.

Makes you wonder... was he wounded by (multiple) 3-ounce balls (i.e. each ball weighed 3 oz's), or was he wounded by three 1-ounce balls (i.e. three balls each weighing 1 oz)?

I'm no artillery expert, and can't tell you what would have been the normal size of the shot used in a canister round, but I wonder if shot/balls weighing only one ounce each would have been smaller than what was typically used...?

I defer to the artillery experts out there... and will file another case into the "Eats, shoots, & leaves..." folder.

 

[Patrick H]

I couldn't comment on the quality of these rifles, but I've never seen anything quite like this specimen. Furthermore, it appears to be in remarkably good condition, too. Thanks for posting.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

If you look closely at the carving on the stock it is very precise "...THREE, OUNCE, BALLS." I would still interpret that as to mean "three, one ounce, balls", which is what the common soldier considered a Minie Ball to weigh.
J.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

Patrick H - I have examined and handled several of these over the years and have found the Saxon/Dresden Rifle Musket to be a very sturdy and well built arm. I would really doubt that these rifle muskets were the ones accused of blowing up. It is a very desirable and difficult arm to add to a collection.
J.

 

[Camp Randall Armory]

The 1851/1857 Saxon Rifle isn't your common "Belgian Musket". Most of the time, when people talk about Belgian Muskets they are talking about surplus .69 smoothbore or .69 rifle muskets after the French pattern. These are the low quality arms and the arms that kicked like a mule. The M1851 and M1857 Saxon Rifle, however, was a first rate .58 caliber rifle that gave good service, that was only replaced due to non-interchangability and quantity of spare parts.

Do you have a link to the auction? My ancestor carried this rifle and I would like to buy one some day. Would like to know the selling price if possible and I'm always on the lookout for more pictures of this semi-rare rifle.

 

[Private Watkins]

The 1851/1857 Saxon Rifle isn't your common "Belgian Musket". Most of the time, when people talk about Belgian Muskets they are talking about surplus .69 smoothbore or .69 rifle muskets after the French pattern. These are the low quality arms and the arms that kicked like a mule. The M1851 and M1857 Saxon Rifle, however, was a first rate .58 caliber rifle that gave good service, that was only replaced due to non-interchangability and quantity of spare parts.

Do you have a link to the auction? My ancestor carried this rifle and I would like to buy one some day. Would like to know the selling price if possible and I'm always on the lookout for more pictures of this semi-rare rifle.

Here's the link... not sure what it went for, but I think it was for more than the estimated price range they gave. They'll post prices later...
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/65/lid/3134

 

[Private Watkins]

The 1851/1857 Saxon Rifle isn't your common "Belgian Musket". Most of the time, when people talk about Belgian Muskets they are talking about surplus .69 smoothbore or .69 rifle muskets after the French pattern. These are the low quality arms and the arms that kicked like a mule. The M1851 and M1857 Saxon Rifle, however, was a first rate .58 caliber rifle that gave good service, that was only replaced due to non-interchangability and quantity of spare parts.

Thanks for the clarification... good to know.

 

[Private Watkins]

If you look closely at the carving on the stock it is very precise "...THREE, OUNCE, BALLS." I would still interpret that as to mean "three, one ounce, balls", which is what the common soldier considered a Minie Ball to weigh.
J.

Indeed, that could be... especially if he was that punctilious with his punctuation. But why then the comma after "ounce"? It wasn't needed I would daresay...

 

[Jobe Holiday]

The comma before and after a word means the word can be left out and the sentence is still correct. Such as if you omit the word "ounce": "...was wounded by three balls." I would say the carving was done by an educated person!
J.

 

[Private Watkins]

The comma before and after a word means the word can be left out and the sentence is still correct. Such as if you omit the word "ounce": "...was wounded by three balls." I would say the carving was done by an educated person!
J.

Lol... yes indeed!

 

[Craig L Barry]

That's a nice piece, while the Belgian muskets had a bad reputation, it was not this particular model. The Belgians copied many European arms, including hundreds of thousands of P53 Enfields. The English gunmakers considered the Belgians their main competition in the gun trade. The Belgian arms which were prone to problems where mostly the older big smoothbore muskets that had seen service many times in Europe before they ended up in America. That one pictured would be a nice pick up. Liege was interesting as a gun making center and Malherbe was a respected gunmaker. The Belgians had a system of handiwork quite different from the English and their costs were about 20% lower.

 

[Private Watkins]

Without intending to take anything away from the punctuation prowess of Mr. Douglas, nor from the theory that @Jobe Holiday has so deftly set forth that Mr. Douglas was wounded by "three, 1-ounce, balls," I went ahead and did a little research on the size of shot in canister rounds to see if there might be any plausibility to the alternate theory that Mr. Douglas was hit by an unstated number of 3-ounce balls. Here is what I found:

Descriptions of solid iron balls used in canister:
Caliber designation - 12-Pdr. Field Howitzer
Allowable diameters in inches - 1.05-1.08
Mean weight in pounds - .16 (approx. 2.6 ounces)​

Caliber designation - 6-Pdr. Gun
Allowable diameters in inches - 1.14-1.17
Mean weight in pounds - .21 (approx. 3.4 ounces)
http://www.civilwarartillery.com/shottables.htm​

I think it's fair to say that the Confederates could have used canister with both of those types of cannon at Shiloh, and if so, it would thus indeed seem plausible that Mr. Douglas was hit by canister balls weighing somewhere around 3-ounces each. Incidentally, I did not see any canister or grape shot listed in the shot-tables as weighing only 1-ounce each, so as stated by Jobe above, the 1-ounce theory would have to point to minie balls (the 12-Pdr. Mountain Howitzer fired canister containing .69 lead musket balls, so that would be another source for a 1-oz minie ball).

Anyway, I suppose we'll never know for sure... was he wounded by

• Three, 1-Ounce, Balls...? or
• (Unstated number of) 3-Ounce Balls...?

Take your pick, vote, debate, argue about it some more... it's all good. Just thought I'd offer up a little more research... and as I stated before I'm not an artillery expert, so if I've erred above I'm sure someone will kindly let me know.

 

[Glen_C]

Without a serious paper trail of provenance, an object could have been inscribed with such just about anytime by anybody. One surely can't assume the trooper did so himself. One should also have a hard time accepting a weapon was kept with him after being wounded and discharged with it without his discharge paperwork. What is the true accession of the piece?

Cheers

GC

 

[Private Watkins]

Without a serious paper trail of provenance, an object could have been inscribed with such just about anytime by anybody. One surely can't assume the trooper did so himself. One should also have a hard time accepting a weapon was kept with him after being wounded and discharged with it without his discharge paperwork. What is the true accession of the piece?

Cheers

GC

No way to know I guess... I'm not sure what the rifle sold for, as the auction house hasn't posted prices yet, but what would one of these be worth without the carving? Some of the comments above seem to indicate that it's not a common find...

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

No way to know I guess... I'm not sure what the rifle sold for, as the auction house hasn't posted prices yet, but what would one of these be worth without the carving? Some of the comments above seem to indicate that it's not a common find...

College Hill Arsenal sold one last week, sans the rear sight, for around $1800 or so. They are an uncommon find, but there just isn't the demand for non typical imports. Apart from Enfields (and other English arms), and Lorenz's to a lesser degree, European arms can typically be purchased very resonably.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

A couple of years ago, however, Heritage sold one for over $11,000 that had a carving IDing it as a captured Confederate musket from the field at Sharpsburg.