Discussion Shell Shot Blastwave Deaths how common was it?

[Scott1967]

In another thread you might of seen about identifying a dead confederate soldier killed at Sharpsburg by a photo of him.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/question-about-sharpsburg-casualty-photograph.169156/

My question is to the Artillery experts out there how common was Blast Wave deaths having read a little bit about it I've formed an opinion that a shell does not have to hit you nor does the shrapnel in order to kill you is this correct?.

The dead Soldier is from Ripley's Brigade who were badly shelled near the Mumma farm for over an hour by numerous Federal guns given the fact that they were lying down I would presume the Feds would have used Shell shot on them instead of solid?.

Your expert help on this forum would be greatly welcome.

Edit: Sorry to be graphic , The dead soldier in question does not have any visible wounds but is leaking blood out of his nose , mouth and eyes is this a symptom of blast damage?.

 

[drezac]

I will admit I don't know the physics involved, but I don't think there would be enough of a blast wave from black powder to do serious damage. We have done some damage with blanks from the State House 12-pdr ( the Ohio Theater complained we broke the bulb filaments on their marquee sign on time ), but compared to modern high explosives, black power is relatively weak. while it's great for bursting a shell to spread shrapnel (shell or case shot), I think the effects of the blast would be minimal as to physical damage ( psychological is another thing) due to the lower velocity of the blast wave. Not to downplay the effects of a black powder blast ( I have been #1 and #2 on a 12-pdr with a 2-pd charge - it's quite a 'thump" when it goes off) but in my opinion I don't think it would generate sufficient pressure to cause any serious damage just from the blast it'self.

perhaps there is someone with military experience in this subject here in CivilWarTalk that can give some more insight.

 

[Scott1967]

I will admit I don't know the physics involved, but I don't think there would be enough of a blast wave from black powder to do serious damage. We have done some damage with blanks from the State House 12-pdr ( the Ohio Theater complained we broke the bulb filaments on their marquee sign on time ), but compared to modern high explosives, black power is relatively weak. while it's great for bursting a shell to spread shrapnel (shell or case shot), I think the effects of the blast would be minimal as to physical damage ( psychological is another thing) due to the lower velocity of the blast wave. Not to downplay the effects of a black powder blast ( I have been #1 and #2 on a 12-pdr with a 2-pd charge - it's quite a 'thump" when it goes off) but in my opinion I don't think it would generate sufficient pressure to cause any serious damage just from the blast it'self.

perhaps there is someone with military experience in this subject here in CivilWarTalk that can give some more insight.

Thx for the reply Drezac , If you could forward it to such a person I would be very grateful , How would you explain the eyewitness accounts at Gettysburg of men dying from internal injuries caused by concussion shells most notably in the Devils Den and just before Picketts Charge?.

Did concussion shells exist? Or again would this be Shell Shot?.

Thankyou.

 

[David Knight]

No great expert on Civil War artillery but I have found this on a Great War Forum (WWI) which shows what was possible 50 years later.

"The concussion from shell blasts could stop a man's heart or rupture internal organs, so that he died with no obvious external trauma. But, it could also result in a most literal form of shell shock. Autopsies on soldiers who were later killed after receiving treatment for shell shock related to ordnance explosions showed that the earlier shell concussion had caused non-fatal neurological damage from tiny hemorrhages in the brain and central nervous system. Of course, men could exhibit similar symptoms even when they had not been exposed to shell fire. In 1916, a distinction started being made between those who were shell shock wounded (W) and shell shock sick (S). "

 

[bankerpapaw]

In Vietnam, one Corpsman was brought in. He looked as if he had been dipped in a vat of blood, yet we couldn't find a wound. Airstrikes were extremely close. I think the concussion of a bomb killed him.

 

[rpkennedy]

I know of a few anecdotes of what was probably concussion killing men but I don't know how often it occurred. In one case, a soldier was lying on the ground and a shell hit the ground several yards in front of him, buried itself under where he was lying, and then blew up. It threw him several yards into the air. His men found him dead even though he had no external injuries.

Ryan

 

[Oldbill]

Im not sure. BP is a low order explosive, and it is considerably less violent than modern explosives. You also need to consider the smaller explosive payload of ACW shell. Now I certainly wouldn't want to be near an ACW shell going off, but I think you'd need to be much closer to it to be killed by concussion alone. With the advent of modern (meaning explosives later than BP) HE, you have a plethora of examples of people being killed by concussion. One example that springs to mind is in Hornfischer's "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors", where a DC (Damage Control) party were going to the location of a large caliber shell hit, and found numerous men dead, none with a mark on them. They said it was very eerie to see them with no wounds, but looking like they are asleep.
Is it possible, eh, I'd have to say yes. Without knowing the blast and casualty radius of the shell used back then, its hard to give a definitive answer, so, a qualified yes. As to the dead soldier alluded to in the OP's question, you can't tell by just seeing one side of a casualty. You need to turn them over and check them. SOP for casualties. I've seen animals bleed from the head from shots to other areas of their bodies.
HTH Bill

 

[Rhea Cole]

In another thread you might of seen about identifying a dead confederate soldier killed at Sharpsburg by a photo of him.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/question-about-sharpsburg-casualty-photograph.169156/

My question is to the Artillery experts out there how common was Blast Wave deaths having read a little bit about it I've formed an opinion that a shell does not have to hit you nor does the shrapnel in order to kill you is this correct?.

The dead Soldier is from Ripley's Brigade who were badly shelled near the Mumma farm for over an hour by numerous Federal guns given the fact that they were lying down I would presume the Feds would have used Shell shot on them instead of solid?.

Your expert help on this forum would be greatly welcome.

Edit: Sorry to be graphic , The dead soldier in question does not have any visible wounds but is leaking blood out of his nose , mouth and eyes is this a symptom of blast damage?.

Civil War case shot & shell had bursting charges, they were not high explosive rounds. The bursting charge of case shot/Shrapnel was just large enough to break open the thin walled case & release the balls inside. It was the ~ 700 MPH velocity of the round that provided the kinetic energy for the impact. If the charge had been large, Mr Newton's laws being what they are, the shell casing/balls would loose velocity. The same is true of shell.

 

[Rhea Cole]

One thing to keep in mind is that while the shock wave is dangerous, the partial vacuum behind it is extremely dangerous. In extreme incidences, internal organs can be sucked out of orifices by the sudden drop in pressure.

 

[Scott1967]

One thing to keep in mind is that while the shock wave is dangerous, the partial vacuum behind it is extremely dangerous. In extreme incidences, internal organs can be sucked out of orifices by the sudden drop in pressure.

Does that include black powder Rhea?.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Does that include black powder Rhea?.

Yes. Even the shock wave from a close miss can cause fatal Cerebral hemorrhages.

 

[Scott1967]

Yes

Thx for that mate , Its what I suspected which may account for sad case of that young lad although we cant see the back of him , Eyewitness accounts talk about what you have just described at Gettysburg from the Rebel bombardment that hit the rear on the third day of men walking around with blood coming from their ears and eyes with no visible wounds.

Very interesting thankyou again.

 

[rpkennedy]

Thx for that mate , Its what I suspected which may account for sad case of that young lad although we cant see the back of him , Eyewitness accounts talk about what you have just described at Gettysburg from the Rebel bombardment that hit the rear on the third day of men walking around with blood coming from their ears and eyes with no visible wounds.

Very interesting thankyou again.

Concussion can also do that. The close explosion could definitely rupture eardrums and burst blood vessels in the nose and eyes, causing them to bleed.

Ryan

 

[Rhea Cole]

Thx for that mate , Its what I suspected which may account for sad case of that young lad although we cant see the back of him , Eyewitness accounts talk about what you have just described at Gettysburg from the Rebel bombardment that hit the rear on the third day of men walking around with blood coming from their ears and eyes with no visible wounds.

Very interesting thankyou again.

It is my pleasure.

 

[lelliott19]

Here's a report of a man wounded by "windage." According to Edwin H Conger, who at the time was a Captain in the 102nd Illinois Infantry, and later an Iowa Congressman, "Major Hagan" of the 70th Indiana sustained wounding under such circumstances at New Hope Church.

[The Morning News. (Savannah, Ga.), May 14, 1895, page 7.]

 

[Scott1967]

Here's a report of a man wounded by "windage." According to Edwin H Conger, who at the time was a Captain in the 102nd Illinois Infantry, and later an Iowa Congressman, "Major Hagan" of the 70th Indiana sustained wounding under such circumstances at New Hope Church.
View attachment 363720
[The Morning News. (Savannah, Ga.), May 14, 1895, page 7.]

Thx for the example Lelliott.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Here's a report of a man wounded by "windage." According to Edwin H Conger, who at the time was a Captain in the 102nd Illinois Infantry, and later an Iowa Congressman, "Major Hagan" of the 70th Indiana sustained wounding under such circumstances at New Hope Church.
View attachment 363720
[The Morning News. (Savannah, Ga.), May 14, 1895, page 7.]

This is a classic description of the ruptures caused by the sudden drop in pressure behind a shock wave.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Here's a report of a man wounded by "windage." According to Edwin H Conger, who at the time was a Captain in the 102nd Illinois Infantry, and later an Iowa Congressman, "Major Hagan" of the 70th Indiana sustained wounding under such circumstances at New Hope Church.
View attachment 363720
[The Morning News. (Savannah, Ga.), May 14, 1895, page 7.]

I always enjoy your posts, where do you get this stuff?

 

[Rhea Cole]

Concussion can also do that. The close explosion could definitely rupture eardrums and burst blood vessels in the nose and eyes, causing them to bleed.

Ryan

For what it is worth, it is the combination of the over pressure followed instantly by the decompression that makes a shock wave so dangerous. In a gross example of a common effect, one smashes into your face, the other sucks your eyeballs out of their sockets.

 

[Saphroneth]

My understanding is that it was the new power of high explosives that made the shockwave much worse, in the Boer War and WW1. That's because high explosive detonates supersonically and generates a powerful shockwave, while gunpowder technically only deflagrates (burns very fast but subsonically) and does not generate an overpressure blast wave (that is, it is a "low" explosive) which results in different injury patterns - it's actually a result of the definitional difference between low and high explosives, only high explosives produce a true blast wave.

IIRC if gunpowder is confined it can build up pressure to the breaking strain of the confining object, but for a time fuzed shell that will be low because of the fuze hole. For a percussion shell the confinement can be more complete (no need for the flame of the gun to initiate the shell) and so the breaking pressure can be higher, so I'd expect that to have some effect.

Of course, I wouldn't rule out myocardial excitement for some "unmarked" dead soldiers. It's not like they did much of a physical examination in those days.