Forrest Shelby Vs. Forrest

Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Location
Las Vegas
Guys want to know what you think about Forrest and Shelby was Shelby as good as Forrest or better? Also what about General Jo Shelby's just burying his banners with officers and fighting for Emperor Maximilian?
 
Guys want to know what you think about Forrest and Shelby was Shelby as good as Forrest or better? Also what about General Jo Shelby's just burying his banners with officers and fighting for Emperor Maximilian?

There's a long thread in this forum with a pretty serious discussion of that question. Maybe one of our smarter folks can link you to it. Silly question, actually, as Forrest had few peers. (No rudeness or disrespect intended.)
 
I have read the old messages

My conclusion is Custer is the best calvary man! My vote after reading about Forrest in various sources and a book on Jo Shelby. Shelby is 1 Forrest ranks 2. I believe all the members must accept this as the truth and thats all, I have to say.

Good Day!
 
My conclusion is Custer is the best calvary man! My vote after reading about Forrest in various sources and a book on Jo Shelby. Shelby is 1 Forrest ranks 2. I believe all the members must accept this as the truth and thats all, I have to say.

Good Day!

Sir,
Good luck in getting all the members of this forum accept wether it is daylight or dark... much less than who the top 10 calvary officers were...:)
 
Fistfight: Forrest
High Stakes cards: Forrest
Endurance Athlete: Forrest
Horse Racing: Forrest
Knife fight: Forrest
Gun fight: Forrest
Checkers: Shelby
Croquet: Shelby
Full Contact Lawn Darts: Forrest
General: Forrest.

At least that's how I'd see it settling out: 8-2 in favor of NBF.
 
Fistfight: Forrest
High Stakes cards: Forrest
Endurance Athlete: Forrest
Horse Racing: Forrest
Knife fight: Forrest
Gun fight: Forrest
Checkers: Shelby
Croquet: Shelby
Full Contact Lawn Darts: Forrest
General: Forrest.

At least that's how I'd see it settling out: 8-2 in favor of NBF.

I'm not so sure...
When forrest "crowned" a checker...he did it with a .44.. it might just be 9-1!
 
Larry,
I thought Forrest had NO peers

Ed

You might be right. As far as fighting men go, he gets much consideration. There may be a few peers who didn't have his luck or grit. Those are the ones who were killed in battle. Forrest had a bit of Divine intervention riding with him. No other conclusion for his survival. He made much of his own luck, the rest was provided.
 
Now I have to finish reading the Shelby book!

It is probably because of scant knowledge of the trans-Mississippi that I can, in good conscience, declare Forrest the winner. From what little I know (which closely matches what Larry knows), Shelby operated in a much smaller arena with little opportunity to make dramatic contributions.

So comparing the two directly puts Shelby very much in the prodigious shadow of Forrest, whose opportunities to shine very much outnumbered Shelby's.

Just an observation.

Ole
 
Hello back from the dead. Why did Forrest have more oppurtunity to shine, a man basicly illiterate with no west point trainimg or pals? Also I would say made himself shine by his unbelieveable deeds, many on his own initiative. Luck I guess. Geeez, how long will it take. With Respect to Shelby a fine commander he would have made a great groom for forrests horses in comparison. It is just difficult after thouroughly researching Forrest to put the two in the same league. Respectfully Ben
 
Why did Forrest have more oppurtunity to shine, a man basicly illiterate with no west point trainimg or pals?
What I meant, footeghoste, that Forrest ranged from Kentucky to Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee and Alabama. Shelby was pretty much confined to Missouri and Arkansas and Kansas ... backwaters of the war.

That didn't come off right. The war was in Tennessee. Forrest was something else. His reports were written by aides. His orders were written and recorded by aides. He was not, by any stretch of the imagination, suited for command.

As I've mentioned, Shelby came from a more learned society. He was a childhood friend of Morgan. But, somehow, this ignorant poor-white trash managed to rise to the level of deserving statues and a tomb. Anyone know where McClellan is buried? Anyone know where Forrest is?

Forrest is probably more exemplary of what we want to think we are than most anyone else. Grant and Sherman were broke when they got into it. Forrest was less educated than either of them when he got into it ... and he was far wealthier. Right or wrong, you really have to admire guys like that.

Ole


Ole
 
Shelby ---

Everyone talks about Forrest Deeds???

Jo Shelby fought in battles where He alone with his men made the difference in the out come the battle(more then once). Forrest never made a difference in any battles that he may have been at.

Jo Shelby as Forest led raids into and behind the union lines with the same and equal success....

Forrest lost control of his men and they murder hundreds of union soldiers....He may not have order it but he was in command so it fall on his shoulders...no excuses

There is no known event as discuss above happen on Jo Shelby's watch, heck his men follow him to Mexico---

Would Forrest men have followed him to Mexico? I guess not...

What deeds did Forrest do in battle that exceed Shelby's none but Shelby does have deeds in battle that exceed Forrest...

Lets face it Forrest was a Highwayman and Jo Shelby was a cavalry man...

A muse--
 
No expert here, but didn't Shelby have a part in some of the darker deeds on the border in the 1850s? I know he seems to have had some sort of religious conversion late in life, insofar as he became a Republican, thought secession was a really bad idea, and wished he'd never fought for it. I give Forrest high marks for at least sticking to his guns. As for making the difference in a major battle, the kind of war Forrest fought was far more important than the standoff battles in Tennessee, where it's hard to tell which commander is the more incompetent. And don't give me that massacre stuff. The Fort Pillow mess has been adequately debunked. Anyone who wants to wade through all the contradictions in the testimony should be able to see that the garrison of Fort Pillow was the gang who couldn't surrender straight. (It happened at King's Mountain, too, but because our cause was Independence, not much is made of the 40-odd bullet holes in Ferguson's body.)
 
Off of memory here; I'm rather certain Forrest captured more guns and more men than any other CS commander west of the Appalachia. He captured & sank gunboats, transports and managed to capture & destroy enormous amounts US miltary supplies. He certainly was involved in more engagements than Shelby and w/ but two exceptions I can think of off the top of my head he pretty much kicked keister and took names.

As to who were his peers... I can't think of many that could compare to his record on either the US or CS side of the argument. Was he the kind of fella I'd invite to dinner? Hell no, but he was the kind of man I'd want in my corner for a fight.

Had an interesting discussion recently where It was suggested that Sherman actually got the idea for the march to Savannah and the Carolinas from Forrest. I had never given such an idea any thought but it is certainly worth a peek to see if there is any merit there.
 
Anyone who wants to wade through all the contradictions in the testimony should be able to see that the garrison of Fort Pillow was the gang who couldn't surrender straight.

I don't mean to hijack the thread but I'm no Forrest expert so I would like to know more about this. If this has already been covered in another thread then just point the way.
 
Dear Johan_Steele;

Name FORREST, Nathan Bedford
Born July 13 1821, Bedford Cty TN
Died October 29 1877, Memphis TN
Pre-War Profession Planter, slave dealer
War Service 1861 Pvt. in Confederate army, raised 7th Tennessee Cavalry, Lt. Col., Fort Donelson, Col. of 3rd Tennessee Cavalry, Shiloh (w), July 1862 Brig. Gen., raided communications in Tennessee, Chickamauga, December 1863 Maj. Gen., given independent command, Fort Pillow, Brice's Cross Roads, commanded cavalry in Hood's Franklin and Nashville campaign, February 1865 Lt. Gen., Selma.
Post War Career Planter, railroad president.
-------------------
As a private citizen, entered in as a Private; I know that the fighting man and NCOs see often more clearly than the officers at times. Common sense, knowing the land and perhaps the trade routes on land and sea; due to his slave trading business. But, if you look at his rapid rise and skips in rank; it should account for something.

I would personally feel that if to 'compare' General N. B. Forrest to another General; I would want them to have been a non-West Point/VMI and or other military training/disciplined background.

It has been previous proven in different discussions; that when it comes down to 'brass tacks'--it didn't matter if they had West Point or come from the ranks of Private--if they were good leaders, had good sense and made progress--they earned their General status.

Personally speaking, I think it would be unfair to judge the various Generals, as each had different opportunities, circumstances and seniority in rank.

As we've seen with General Hood, excellent General but, not in the commanding position as "The Commanding General." And, yet--given the circumstances and the shape of the army when he took over; had much to do with the overall outcome. The same with Union General McClellan--excellent admin. General but not good as "The Commanding General."

Some Generals did not have the chance to be "The Commanding General."

Their performance as one would be a 'what if' and we'll never know.

I believe it to be the same uneven ground/process to judge various Cavalry Generals, due to their commands being in different stations/areas/theaters of operation and or duties assigned to them.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
 
Before N.B. Forrest was General -- You can see how keen he was; short, sweet and to the point:

O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME IV [S# 4] CHAPTER XII.
Correspondence, Orders, And Returns Relating Specially To Operations In Kentucky And Tennessee From July 1 To November 19, 1861.
CONFEDERATE CORRESPONDENCE, ETC.--#4
HOPKINSVILLE, November 14, 1861.
W. W. MACKALL, Assistant Adjutant-General:
I have been operating with my command of eight companies near Fort Henry and Fort Donelson, by order of General Polk. Finding the country impracticable for cavalry, and with scant subsistence, I moved a part of my command to Canton, north side Cumberland River, leaving two companies at Dover. I am of no use south of Cumberland; desire my command united, and can do vast service with General Tilghman. Will you so order?
N. B. FORREST
Commanding Tennessee Cavalry.
-----
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME IV [S# 4] CHAPTER XII.
Correspondence, Orders, And Returns Relating Specially To Operations In Kentucky And Tennessee From July 1 To November 19, 1861.
CONFEDERATE CORRESPONDENCE, ETC.--#4
HEADQUARTERS WESTERN DEPARTMENT,
Bowling Green, Ky., November 15, 1861.
Brigadier-General CLARK:
GENERAL: I am instructed by General Johnston to say you will proceed to Hopkinsville, in obedience to the orders you have received. Six companies of cavalry, under Colonel Forrest, have been ordered to that point. General Pillow will not take charge of the operations projected on that front.
You will receive no troops from General Polk. A regiment, partially armed by the governor of Tennessee, is, or will be shortly, at Clarksville, and General Tilghman has been ordered to send some 500 arms to that point to meet it. See that this is done, and give orders to this regiment. General Tilghman will be retained by you at Hopkinsville until you are fully posted as to the country and the command. Clarksville will form a part of your command, and you will see that the works now in progress are properly garrisoned.
Respectfully, your obedient servant,
W. W. MACKALL,
Assistant Adjutant-General.
----
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 7 [S# 7]
CORRESPONDENCE, ORDERS, AND RETURNS RELATING TO OPERATIONS IN KENTUCKY, TENNESSEE, NORTHERN ALABAMA, AND SOUTHWEST VIRGINIA FROM NOVEMBER 19, 1861, TO MARCH 4, 1862.
UNION CORRESPONDENCE, ETC. --3
HEADQUARTERS FIFTH DIVISION,
South Carrollton, January 27, 1862
Capt. J. B. FRY,
Assistant Adjutant-General:
CAPTAIN: I have received information from Hopkinsville that Colonel Forrest, with his cavalry, has it in contemplation to attempt to destroy Lock No. 1 on Green River. They have destroyed all the bridges on Pond River, which would prevent any attempt on my part to cut them off, as that stream is a deep, muddy one, and only fordable in a few places at low water. At present the locks are perfectly safe, as the water is 10 feet deep on them; but should the water fall while the armies are in their present positions, they could easily effect their object before I could possibly assist the small party stationed there.
I do not think I ought to weaken my strength here by sending away permanently a strong detachment, and would most respectfully suggest that 200 or 300 men be sent from Indiana for that purpose. There are some slight fortifications there, and that number of men could defend the place against such cavalry as could be sent against them.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
T. L. CRITTENDEN,
Brigadier-General, Commanding.
--------------------------------
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 7 [S# 7]
NOVEMBER 24-DECEMBER 5, 1861.--Forrest's Expedition to Caseyville, Eddyville, &c., Ky.
No. 1.
Report of Col. N. B. Forrest, Tennessee Cavalry (Confederate).
REGIMENTAL HEADQUARTERS,
Hopkinsville, Ky., December 5, 1861.
Leaving Hopkinsville November 2, with 300 men and their officers, under orders from brigade headquarters, we went to Greenville, where we found some arms and equipments belonging to the enemy, as will be seen by a list herewith returned; also a soldier in full uniform, whom we made prisoner and returned to the commander of the post; from thence to Madisonville, where I sent Captain Overton, with 30 men, in the direction of Ashbysburg and Calhoun, who reported that all the troops had left the former place and gone to the latter (Calhoun). I then sent a scout to Henderson, dressed as a citizen, who reported that all the Federal forces had been sent from that town to Calhoun and their sick to Evansville.
]]]]]I then visited Providence and Claysville and Morganfield, at all of which places the people met us with smiles and cheers, and fed and greeted us kindly.
I then went to Caseyville, on the Ohio River; then up the Tradewater 12 miles, where I crossed and went to Marion, in Crittenden County. When near that place a lady came from her door and begged in the name of her children for help, and representing that her husband (who was citizen of standing and unconnected with the war) had been captured by Federal soldiers, led on and assisted by citizens of the neighborhood, whose names being given, I deemed it proper to arrest. William Akers was arrested, and when I approached the house of Jonathan Bells he shot the surgeon of my regiment from the door and escaped by a back opening in the house. A noble and brave man, and skillful surgeon, and high-toned gentleman was Dr. Van Wyck, and his loss was deeply felt by the whole regiment. Dispatching the body in care of Major Kelly, with 100 men, to Hopkinsville, I remained in the vicinity of Marion another day, and my scouts arrested one Federal soldier and brought him as prisoner, and killed one Scott, the leader of the band, who had sworn to shoot Southern men from their houses and behind trees, he (Scott) attempting it by wounding three horses with a shot-gun. The scouts found with him three guns and a pistol, which are returned to the Ordnance Department; also two horses of the enemy.
[excerpt]
It is believed that the expedition has done great good in giving confidence to the Southern-rights men, destroying the distorted ideas of Union men, who expected every species of abuse at the hands of the Confederate soldiers, many of them expressing their agreeable disappointment and change of views in regard to our army, and not a few assured us that they would no longer use any influence against the cause of the South. Universal kindness was the policy of the officers in command. With me were Captains Overton, May, Truitt, and Hambrick, in command of detachments of their own companies, and Lieutenant Sims, in command of a detachment of Captain Gould's company, and Lieutenant Gentry, in command of a detachment of Captain Logan's company, and as guide Lieutenant Wallace, of Captain Huey's company.
A number of hogs and cattle were started from the counties between this and the river and along the river under the auspices of the expedition.
There are no Federal forces remaining on this side the Ohio from the mouth of Green to the mouth of Cumberland, and with the exception of a few scouts none have been there for twelve days.
After I left Madisonville, Jackson's cavalry visited the place, about 440 in number, but he attempted no pursuit: he might have easily overtaken us. After we were at Caseyville 200 Federal troops came there and captured about eighty hogs, became intoxicated on stolen whisky, and left in a row.
]]]]]All of which is respectfully submitted.
N. B. FORREST,
Colonel, Commanding Forrest Regiment Cavalry.
Brig. Gen. CHARLES CLARK,
Commanding at Hopkinsville, Ky.
---------------------
continued
 
...then just point the way.
Search Ft. Pillow and Forrest and take a week off work. You'll need the time. These subjects are the proverbial dead horses. They only come back because this board has so many new members. (And, it wouldn't hurt the old members to revisit them now and then.)

Ole
 

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