Sabre Identification?

[FiremarshalBill]

A friend of mine has this old cavalry sabre and asked me if I could help him identify it and perhaps put a value on it, so I'm turning to the experts here. The overall length is 43 1/4 inches long and the blade itself is 36 inches tip to hilt. It looks a bit like a Model 1860 Light Cavalry sabre but as you can see in the photos it is fancier and the blade is heavily etched. Also, the wire wrapping on the grip is not twisted wire but a thin strip of brass (?) I think there might be a semi-precious stone in the grip. There are some words etched on top of the thickest part of the blade near the hilt but I cannot tell what it says. French? There are two letters stamped on the side of the blade at the hilt.

I have a few more photos if you need them. What's your guess?

 

[Cumpston1862]

Not able to do much research on it at the moment. But it is most likely a European import brought in during the war. it could have been brought in by either side. It seems to be of a finer class possibly meant for an officer. A general google search brings up several similar etchings with "Klingenthal".

 

[Schwallanscher]

klingenthal, alsace - klingenthal is german and translates to'valley of blades' - alsace is a french-german border area

to me it has a lot in common with the french m 1822 'cavalry of the line'-sabre

 

[FiremarshalBill]

The more I read up on this, the more I'm thinking it might be an officers M1822 Light Cavalry sabre made by Klingenthal in France. There are no specific US or CS markings to verify it was an ACW weapon. One of the odd things about it is the wire wrapped around the grip. Its not the usual two wires wrapped around each other and then wrapped around the grip design. It looks more like a single roll-stamped wire wrapping around the shark skin covering. I have not seen any photos of a like M1822 with the eagle pommel, or a stone set in the top side of the grip. There are two inspector marks at the base of the blade... one is and E and one is either a C or a G. Both letters appear to have a crown stamped above the letter. This thing looks like it was hung in a barn for many years and is quite dirty and corroded, with light surface rust over the entire scabbard. Should it be cleaned up a bit or left alone?

 

[Schwallanscher]

that eagle is no way european - the french have a rooster (sic!) that gets eaten regulary by a certain eagle (but our eagle faces into the other direction) - could this sabre be a surplus import with an 'after market'-us eagle?

german eagles:

 

[UCVRelics]

It is indeed an early Klingenthal cavalry officers sword with the fancy wire over the shark-skin leads me to that. The stone is an amethyst. Many of these were imported during the CW. But from the Germany eagle on the pommel cap I would say its not an import for either US or CS army but was made for the Prussian army.

 

[Schwallanscher]

It is indeed an early Klingenthal cavalry officers sword with the fancy wire over the shark-skin leads me to that. The stone is an amethyst. Many of these were imported during the CW. But from the Germany eagle on the pommel cap I would say its not an import for either US or CS army but was made for the Prussian army.

no way - the only european eagle facing to the left is the kuk-eagle, and thatone got two heads

at least yours is facing left at times, ours is not

 

[UCVRelics]

I agree but that eagle is NOT US and its D#$N sure not CS so I guess its anybodies guess to who it was made for.

 

[Schwallanscher]

that's what i meant with after-market - somebody got that sabre and had it americanized - i also don't believe the prussian army would ever buy a sabre with french markings - alsace is (and was) bilingual, i.e. sabres for the prussian army would most certainly have german markins

 

[FiremarshalBill]

Could it be the French Imperial eagle?

 

[Schwallanscher]

Could it be the French Imperial eagle?

definately, but then it's not an m 1822 - there wouldn't be surplus from the 2nd empire (founded 1852) to be used in the acw as france would still be in the process of issuing them

obviously there were no m-1822 in the 1st empire

 

[Richard E. Schenk]

This is a French M1822 Officer's sword made for a French officer, probably during the second empire. I'm not really all that familiar with French swords, but someone who is could probably narrow down the dates based on the poincons at the base of the blade. If no one on this forum has the info, suggest you post your question on Sword Forum International - a number of their members seem to be knowledgeable and/or have the references to identify amd date these markings.

 

[Glen_C]

IMO, likely post ACW French officer's sword at a time when Chatterault was the/a official military supplier. Unless it has been removed/worn off, the date might be shown on the blade. K&C supplied blades to a number of cutlers, who then sold privately. Look for a stamp on the hilt somewhere in a rectangle or oval.

 

[Glen_C]

that's what i meant with after-market - somebody got that sabre and had it americanized - i also don't believe the prussian army would ever buy a sabre with french markings - alsace is (and was) bilingual, i.e. sabres for the prussian army would most certainly have german markins

Americanized in what way? One occasionally finds French made swords for the American market but would show as blade etch detail.

As far as eagles facing right and left, there really was no mandate as to what would show up until very late (comparatively). There are a number of good sites for information as to how the American Great Seal evolved. How artisans displayed the eagle, then an entirely different ball of wax. In general an eagle alone to signify the US will most often bear a shield on its breast, or above one.

Cheers

GC

 

[Richard E. Schenk]

The eagle on the pommel is a Napoleonic imperial eagle, i.e. a spread-wing eagle standing on a thunder bolt.