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REMOVING CONFEDERATE MONUMENTS?

Discussion in 'Moderated Threads' started by Thomasgat, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. Thomasgat

    Thomasgat Private

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  3. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Colonel

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    Did all Southners support the Confederacy? Did the 40 percent of the Southern population that was black support the concept of slavery? Did the 100k plus Southern white men in the Union Army support the Confederacy?
    Leftyhunter
     
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  4. RobertP

    RobertP Major

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    Lefty, a landslide election in this country is 55-45. That’s just the way it is and what it means is that there will be a significant portion of the population who will not be happy with any decision on any matter. The good thing is that we have freedom of movement.
     
  5. cash

    cash Brev. Brig. Gen'l

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    Is it your contention that everyone in the 19th Century thought the confederacy was wonderful? If so, what was that war all about?

    A monument isn't history. In fact, those who get their history from monuments most often get a false version of history.

    A monument is something that honors people or a cause or an event. Is treason against the United States something to be honored? Is white supremacy something to be honored? Here is an article by a historian in North Carolina who researched the dedication speeches at confederate monuments in that state.

    Here is an excerpt from that article:

    [begin quote]
    In front of Charlotte’s common soldier monument, dedicated in 1910, Judge Armistead Burwell admonished his audience to “be reminded by this silent soldier ... to protect from taint the Saxon blood that courses in your veins.” Eleven years later, in Caswell County, Chief Executive of the North Carolina Daughters of the Confederacy Mary Kerr Spencer declared, “We are proud of the fact that North Carolina has the finest and purest strain of Anglo-Saxon blood in the veins of her people on the American continent.” At a 1909 dedication, Gov.William Kitchin extolled whites for their subjugation of black Americans, Central Americans, Asians, Africans and Native Americans. In this project of global racial ordering, he proudly proclaimed, “the Confederate veteran has had his full share.”

    Reconstruction was another recurrent theme. Thirteen of the speeches described the postwar period. Orators spun a narrative of Reconstruction as a tragic era of misrule stemming from black suffrage. Carr alluded to Reconstruction as the time “when ‘the bottom rail was on top,’ ” suggesting – incorrectly – that former slaves had become politically dominant. Confederate veteran John C. McLauchlin tapped into a deeper anxiety at the Wadesboro monument. He said that during Reconstruction “our homes were not inviolable, our women were not secure from the assaults of the brutish,” conjuring up the white nightmare of black rapists.

    People at the time disputed this interpretation, and historians have thoroughly discredited it. Nevertheless, it was a story that white supremacists used to justify disenfranchisement and imagine Confederate veterans as heroes. At the dedication of the Pittsboro soldiers’ monument in 1907, Judge Walter Clark told fellow veterans “in the years following (the war) you were equal to the highest duties of the citizen.” Gov. Thomas Bickett told a Rocky Mount audience in 1917 that “the example of the heroism and fortitude of the Confederate soldier has been worth more since the war was over than the war cost.” Kitchin was “glad the leaders in war had become the leaders in peace.”

    Monuments to the common Confederate soldier were inseparable from white nationalism. They were built to celebrate veterans’ successful efforts to circumscribe black citizenship, and dedication speakers wanted those actions to inspire others.
    [end quote]

    While it's true most white folks in the 19th Century were white supremacists by today's standard, black folks in the 19th Century didn't share those white supremacist views. So to say we are viewing the 19th Century with 21st Century values ignores the 36% of the state according to the 1860 Census who were black.

    But is it so bad to judge a monument existing today by today's standards? If people in a North Carolina city today decide the confederacy is no longer something they want to honor, then why should they be forced to honor it? Shouldn't they have the freedom to honor or not honor whomever they wish? Why can't we just leave it up to the local communities to decide who or what they want to honor?
     
  6. Tennessee_Mountainman

    Tennessee_Mountainman Sergeant

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    Meanwhile people driving by on their lunch break are thinking, "Man, I'm glad I have a job and don't have the time on my hands to do something counter-productive and childish like those people tearing down that statue."

    Usually, when you have a life you have a lot more things to worry about like working or dropping by to see your kids or loved ones as opposed to thinking about how you're going to tear down a historical monument not doing you any harm. You can look at how some of those people dress and tell that they are scum who have no respect for the society that they live in or give them the rights to protest without being gunned down in the street. If you want them moved, get some people knowledgeable on the subject to vote.
     
  7. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brev. Brig. Gen'l Forum Host Retired Moderator

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    The Confederates and their descendants made it a crime to view other histories, and have other opinions even to the point of hanging people with literature in their possession they did not like. I embrace your call to view current Confederate iconology with that 19th-century philosophy. If objectionable, tear it all down. Those 21st-century values are a lot more tolerant than the 19th-century ones. It is a mixed bag.
     
  8. uaskme

    uaskme First Sergeant

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    Yankees were no better!
     
  9. cash

    cash Brev. Brig. Gen'l

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    Tu quoque fallacy.
     
  10. BlueNGrey

    BlueNGrey Corporal Trivia Game Winner

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    He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.
    Confederate monuments are an anachronistic piece of history. My feeling is that as people come to realize what they represent, ( The last gasp of the Southern Lost Cause) they should have a choice whether to remove them.
     
  11. cash

    cash Brev. Brig. Gen'l

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    Ah, the argument for apathy.


    And these children that you spit on
    As they try to change their worlds
    Are immune to your consultations
    They're quite aware of what they're goin' through
     
  12. huskerblitz

    huskerblitz Captain

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    Most people with lives manage their daily life while also being an activist for causes they agree/disagree with.
     
  13. Irishtom29

    Irishtom29 First Sergeant

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    The erection of these monuments was a political act as is their removal. That’s the way it goes.
     
  14. Todd 11PVI

    Todd 11PVI Private

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    Will everyone be content to say " tear them all down" when they are demanding ALL monuments to the civil war be taken down? I live in Pennsylvania very close to Gettysburg and cannot stand to imagine that one day the battlefield will be explained like this, A long time ago certain people fought here but we can't say who and why for fear of hurting someone's feelings. The war happened, as all wars have. If we fail to learn from it and Move on, then it truly was fought in vain. To say that every Confederate monument is a memorial to white supremacy is simply assinine.
     
  15. Thomasgat

    Thomasgat Private

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    I agree with uaskme - Yankees were no better - some had slaves. Should we tear down any and all monuments to General Sherman? He was pretty cruel on his march.
     
  16. MAJOR DUNDEE

    MAJOR DUNDEE Private

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    I just hope that they'll be preserved, I've heard most of them are kept into museums.
    This one is great, and I hadn't heard of it until it was removed...(It was in Dallas). C82.jpg
     
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  17. Tennessee_Mountainman

    Tennessee_Mountainman Sergeant

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    So the best way to be an activist is to illegally destroy property? You're going to have to do better than that. There's nothing wrong activism until it crosses the line.
     
  18. Andersonh1

    Andersonh1 Captain

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    All I will say is, to those cheering the removal of monuments, be careful what you wish for. It has not stopped with Confederates.
     
  19. cash

    cash Brev. Brig. Gen'l

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    I don't know about anyone else, but I get my history from history books and from historians. I get very little understanding of history from monuments, especially those that have wrong information on them or are located in the wrong place.

    Let's remember these movements are being led by people who live in local areas, and the decisions are being made at the local level. Local people should be the ones to determine who and what they will honor with a monument.
     
  20. cash

    cash Brev. Brig. Gen'l

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    He was a responsible commander on his march.

    It should be up to the people in whose localities any monuments to Sherman are located as to whether or not those monuments stay.
     
  21. cash

    cash Brev. Brig. Gen'l

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    Unless, of course, the activism is one with which we agree.
     
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