Remington barrel marking help needed

[scooter748driver]

Ran across this Remmington today. It was tagged as a Beals model. I always thought those had the word Beals Patent on them.

I believe the New Army models say "New Army" on them, don't they?

My question is, is this one a "old army" or a "Beals"? Thanks

 

[UCVRelics]

It looks like an early production New Model 2 line address model. A Beals would have Beals Patent. Post a photo of the barrel theards and cylinder and serial #

 

[scooter748driver]

I'll have to go back and look it over more/get pictures. I'm debating on purchasing it regardless as it's priced very low. Lots of patina but the action works and it looks complete.

Had it been a Beals it'd already be home with me.

 

[bayonet]

I'll have to go back and look it over more/get pictures. I'm debating on purchasing it regardless as it's priced very low. Lots of patina but the action works and it looks complete.

Had it been a Beals it'd already be home with me.

What do you consider "priced very low"?

 

[scooter748driver]

I went back and looked at it more closely today when I had more time. I was hoping it was an early model (not a "new" army) or better yet a Navy (it was tagged as a Beals in 44 but knowing the Beals part was wrong I thought/hoped it might be one of the less rare Navy models).

The serial number placed it as a November 1864 piece, but the lack of the "New Model" on the barrel still has be stumped as I thought they were all marked that way by so late in the war (a replacement barrel perhaps? A Frankengun?) I had too many unanswered questions to pull the trigger so to speak so it remains where I found it.

The "very low price" (at least in my thinking) was $475. However, I suspect it could be had for $425-450.

The good news is that I did discover another pistol there that came home with me for what I feel is a fantastic price (see separate post).

Now, if this IS some rare version of the Remington 1858 someone please let me know. The little store I found it in isn't too far off my regular travels.

Thanks!

 

[bayonet]

I went back and looked at it more closely today when I had more time. I was hoping it was an early model (not a "new" army) or better yet a Navy (it was tagged as a Beals in 44 but knowing the Beals part was wrong I thought/hoped it might be one of the less rare Navy models).

The serial number placed it as a November 1864 piece, but the lack of the "New Model" on the barrel still has be stumped as I thought they were all marked that way by so late in the war (a replacement barrel perhaps? A Frankengun?) I had too many unanswered questions to pull the trigger so to speak so it remains where I found it.

The "very low price" (at least in my thinking) was $475. However, I suspect it could be had for $425-450.

The good news is that I did discover another pistol there that came home with me for what I feel is a fantastic price (see separate post).

Now, if this IS some rare version of the Remington 1858 someone please let me know. The little store I found it in isn't too far off my regular travels.

Thanks!

Oh I'd say that price is low for what you do know of it.

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

I'd buy it and I'm cheap. If that was at a gun show it would get sold right away.

 

[UCVRelics]

More photos are needed to determine just what it is. Keep in mind serial # overlapped

 

[bayonet]

There was another post recently I believe on another Remington 1858 and they wanted around $1700-1800 +. So if the rest of that gun is in ok shape I'd run back and get it.

 

[Papabyrd]

The Remington is a old model made between the Beal and the New Model. You run up on them a lot less than the New Model.
If it were me I would be beating a path to the gun store and grabbing that one up at that price.

 

[scooter748driver]

I'm still confused by the 6-digit serial number. Would an "old model" have such a high serial number (which. If I looked it up correctly, dates to November 1864)??

Any ideas? This is the main thing that gave me pause…the high serial number but the lack of any "New Model" designation on the barrel stamping.

 

[Papabyrd]

MY 1858 does not say new model and it's serial number is 115549

 

[Papabyrd]

Well, I may have shot my mouth off. After taking this picture, I see what may be New Model under the address. The camera can see better than i can.

 

[scooter748driver]

Well, I may have shot my mouth off. After taking this picture, I see what may be New Model under the address. The camera can see better than i can.

It looks like it does say New Model faintly in the picture. This one doesn't which is (rightly or wrongly) giving me fits. I'm going to have to try to research it.

I thought about contacting the author of the book Remington Army & Navy Revolvers 1861-1888, Donald L. Ware but I've learned he passed in 2010. I'm going to have to dive into the book to see that I can find if anything.

 

[scooter748driver]

Well, I went back to the store to see what kind of price they'd do on it. They budged a little and so I took a chance and brought it home.

From what little research I've done on it, it seems to be a New Model Army. The serial number puts it as a November 1864 production. It appears to be all matching with the serial number 107474 being on the bottom of the barrel, on the left grip frame, and on the trigger guard.

The barrel markings still have me stumped. The barrel marking is more commonly found on serial number ranges in to 10-20k range (at least according to Ware's book Remington Army & Navy Revolvers 1861-1888 if I'm reading it correctly). Had the barrel serial number not matched the frame id suspect it's a rebarrel, but it appears the be original to the gun and the numbers don't look to be restamped. Of course I could be wrong and maybe that's exactly what this is. Still, I'd love a more expert opinion on it.

There are several inspector markings on it, mainly H but also one W. There is a faint cartouche on the left grip that looks like OWA for O.W. Ainsworth to me but might be a different letter combination.

There is a damaged section on the cylinder and one nipple missing, perhaps the result of an unintentional discharge? The remaining 5 nipples appears the be ok.

The cylinder arbor pin is broken and (for now) I can't get it removed with the use of thin needle nose pliers. When I have more time (and courage) I may try to take it apart to see how I can free the cylinder. If anyone has suggestion please make them!

Now, I likely wouldn't have bothered with this gun, but as I was able to get it for $450 out the door I think I didn't get burned too bad. What do you think (opinions truly welcomed)

Here are pics I took once I got it home this evening:

Barrel serial number 107474

Frame serial number 107474

Trigger guard serial number 7474

Barrel address more commonly found on 10-20k serial numbered revolvers (per Ware) and the biggest mystery/question for me anyway

Cartouche on left grip. OWA?

Inspector or assembly mark H on cylinder, barrel and trigger guard

Inspector or assembly mark W on frame

Cylinder damage/missng nipple

Broken cylinder arbor pin (suggestion on how to remove it???)

What the cylinder arbor pin should look like

 

[bobinwmass]

I think the "NEW MODEL" stamping may just be worn away. If you look under the O and N in "ILION", it looks like the remnants of an E or L.

 

[scooter748driver]

I think the "NEW MODEL" stamping may just be worn away. If you look under the O and N in "ILION", it looks like the remnants of an E or L.

Could be. I didn't see anything at all when using a magnifying glass but I'll check again tomorrow. That'd certainly solve my "mystery" though!

Now...any thought on how to get that broken arbor pin out?

 

[bobinwmass]

Could be. I didn't see anything at all when using a magnifying glass but I'll check again tomorrow. That'd certainly solve my "mystery" though!

Now...any thought on how to get that broken arbor pin out?

I just used 2 fingers to enlarge the nice clear photo you posted.

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

I have two reproduction Uberti New Models and have shot and fixed them a lot. (I'd love to have an original!) Those cylinder pins can get stuck pretty bad, that's how it probably got broken. Someone twisted and pounded on the "tee" part too hard.
I think the only way your pin can be removed would be to take the gun apart and soak the frame in penetrating oil. There is a hole lining up with the pin on the back side under the hammer - a snuck fitting punch through that hole might be able to move it forward. Some heat would help too.
It looks like the damage to the cylinder came from someone trying to get the nipple out - maybe chiseling on it. The nipple could probably be drilled out and replaced, but the damaged area around it is sort of permanent. Part of the gun's history.

 

[aardq]

That is a new Model army, and it was made in Nov, 1864. The main feature of the New Models is that the bbl threads are visible. The bbl address for the Beals had "Beals Patent..." on the bbl. The Old Model, or 1861 Model,has a two line address with an 1861 patent date. The first New Models have a 2-line address with the 1858 patent date.
Shortly after production began, the words "New Model" were added to the end of the second line. Then the marking was changed by moving the "New Model" below the first two lines. Sometimes the New Model marking was faint and wore off. The key is the location of the marking. the 2-line marks are centered on the bbl. If there are 2-lines near the tops of the bbl, it is a New Model with the words worn off. Again, the threads showing is what makes the New Models, actually new models.

Remington never threw anything away, and there can be early model parts on later model guns. Especially the front sights.

One way to remove the broken arbor, remove the cylinder and the loading lever, and put the frame in a vise. Get a rod or a punch, about the same diameter as the arbor and use the rod, or a punch, tapping it with a hammer, to push the broken piece out into the frame window.

Another method is the reverse of the above, but first you have to remover the trigger guard, and internal parts, and the hammer. then you can start the rod from the rear of the frame, using the hole that the arbor fit into as a guide for the rod. Then tap the rod with the hammer and push the piece out through the frame.
Good luck,
Daniel