Reminder

[Borderruffian]

Battalion,

This is a great list of side show battles each has their place in history but at last just minor.

I am gracious so I will add:


Chattanooga: This is where Grant ascends to the best general in the union army.


Mobil Bay: The navel war of the CW is to offen ignored.

What you westerns forget is almost every battle Lee fought the Confederacy was at risk of losing Richmond and the war. Lee battles will always be major moments in the CW compared to battles in the west.

And I'd say the loss of Donelson and Henry which lead to the loss of one the souths best industrial/Agricultural areas, Middle Tennessee began the death knell of the CS.

The loss of Chattanoga effectively cut the CS in half and spelled doom for the CS.

Nope not a side show IMHO.

 

[5fish]

Ruffians..

If the war between the Mississippi and the Smokey mountains was military action at semi-pro level at best then the war fought west of the Mississippi must have been something less.

I trying to think of a large battle or something that stand out over the years about that part of America during the civil war. The only thing that comes to mind is Ruffians.....Lawless war...

 

[samgrant]

OK, this one I'll argue. 5fish claims that the war in the West was at best a side-show to the ANV-AOP fight in the East, if I'm not mistaken.

Has 5fish come to that opinion because of the fact that the war in the east was closer to the corresponding capitals and also closer to the major news sources of the time, so it got the majority of the coverage?

There are probably many more arguments to refute this contention than to sustain it.

I'll just suggest a few, with the proviso that we discard the oceanic/coastal naval stuff, which was pretty much even in both theaters.

- The AOP and ANV battles of the East pretty much occurred within the confines of a single state, Virginia, and it's borders (including Maryland). The Gettysburg thing being somewhat of an aberration. Tho there were a few minor early North Carolina battles. As such it could be compared to a slow game of chess, in which the game was to capture the other's king/capital.

In the West, the armies fought over vast distances from the Ohio river to the Mississippi and beyond, and to the Gulf, and finally into the coastal southeast and even up into (yes, again) North Carolina. Within this wide swath of America, were the most strategic positions, the control of the Mississippi river being the foremost, but also many of the South's major manufacturing and transportation centers.

A case could be made that the siege of Petersburg/Richmond may have gone on alot longer had not Sherman demoralized the South thru Georgia and was actively heading toward Virginia, before the Lee's army gave out. Don't forget George Thomas utter defeat of the last viable Western Confederate army. The dominance of the Union army in the Western war was a major influence on the resulting increasing Confederate desertions from the lines at Petersburg/Richmond.

Frankly, a fair case could be made that the stalemate in the East was a side-show to the real war in the West.


-

 

[Borderruffian]

If the war between the Mississippi and the Smokey mountains was military action at semi-pro level at best then the war fought west of the Mississippi must have been something less.

I trying to think of a large battle or something that stand out over the years about that part of America during the civil war. The only thing that comes to mind is Ruffians.....Lawless war...

Try these:
Wilson's Creek
Newtonia I & II
Carthage
Lexington I & II
Lone Jack
Pilot's Knob
Palmeyra
Pea Ridge
Helena
Poison Springs
Honey Springs
Cabin Creek
Baton Rouge
The Red River Campaign
Camden expedition
Sabine Pass
Glorettia Pass
Palmetto Ranch

To name a few. Not as large and grand as your beloved Eastern War but conventional type battles all the same.
Not all the fighting in the Trans -Miss was irregular.

 

[rivrrat]

At the time it was fought, the Battle of Wilson's creek was the second largest land battle fought on the North American Continent.

 

[M E Wolf]

Dear Rivrrat/Doug,

I am sure it was a huge fight, as Union Brigadier General Nathaniel Lyon was killed at Wilson Creek, August 10, 1861 -- I believe all too often, the early battles and those west of the mountains are over looked.

It is my recollection, that Col. Stand Waite, of the Cherokee Indian Nation formed his "Mounted Rifles" around the time Pea Ridge occured. He came to be the highest ranking Cherokee as a Brigadier General and the last to surrender--a couple of days after General Lee's surrender.

So, I do believe -- there is good reason to focus on the less known battles that occured during the course of the Civil War. It was no less important then other battles we're prone to know more about and or written about.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

 

[rivrrat]

You are correct, although he was comissioned in 1861, and his regiment fought an important battle in the Indian Territory just after the Battle of Wilson's Creek. He was the only native american to reach general's rank during the war.
The Confederates in the Trans-Missippi were a tough bunch. Watie was the last general to surrender, but Gen. Jo Shelby never surrendered.

 

[M E Wolf]

Dear List Members,

Just putting out what I have, as far as losses of Generals -- I also want to first say though, I am no expert so --be gentle with me in correcting me as I rather learn from those who know much more than I.

I'm afraid I am one of those history students that was not given much history of other battles outside the immediate area of the Eastern Theater.

Here is what I have: All Generals-killed and location
Confederate Generals: (Killed immediately - see separate list of mortally wounded)
ADAMS, John (Brig) -Franklin
CLEBURNE, Patrick Ronayne (Maj)-Franklin
DESHLER, James (Brig) - Chickamauga
GARROTT, Isham Warren (Brig - rank after death)-Vicksburg
GIST, States Rights (unknown level.) - Franklin
GRANBURY, Hiram Bronson (Brig) -Franklin
GREEN, Martin Edwin (Brig) - Vicksburg
LITTLE, Lewis Henry (Brig) - Iuka
MCCULLOCH, Ben (Brig) -Elkhorn Tavern *note:Brother of Gen. Henry McCulloch
MCINTOSH, James McQueen (Brig) - Elkhorn Tavern
MOUTON, Jean Jacques Alfred Alexander (Brig) - Mansfield
POLK, Leonidas (Maj) -Pine Mountain
RAINS, James Edward (Brig) - Murfreesboro
STRAHL, Otho French (Brig) - Franklin
TILGHMAN, Lloyd (Brig) - Champion's Hill
TRACY, Edward Dorr (Brig) - Port Gibson (Mississippi)
ZOLLICOFFER, Felix Kirk (Brig) - Mill Springs

Union Generals killed -
CHAPIN, Edward Payson (Brig.)- Port Hudson *posthumously promoted.
JACKSON, James Streshly (Brig)- Perryville
LYON, Nathaniel (Brig) - Wilson Creek
LYTLE, William Haynes (Brig) - Chickamauga
SILL, Joshua Woodrow (Brig)-Stone's River
TERRILL, William Rufus (Brig) -Perryville *Brother of Confederate Gen. James B Terrill

Mortal wounded - died of wounds in battle

Mortally wounded - died of woundsUnion Generals:
BIDWELL, Daniel Davidson (Brig) - Cedar Creek
HACKLEMAN, Pleasant Adam (Brig) - Corinth
HARKER, Charles Garrison (Brig) - Kennesaw Mountain
KIRK, Edward Needles (Brig) - Stone River
MCCOOK, Daniel Jr (Brig) - Kennesaw Mountain
MCCOOK, Robert Latimer (Brig)-Corinth
RICE, Samuel Allen (Brig) - Jenkins' Ferry *Brother of Gen. E W Rice
SANDERS, William Price (Brig) - Knoxville
STRONG, George Crockett (Brig) promoted to (Maj) before death - Morris Island, Battery Wagner
WALLACE, William Hervy Lamme (Brig) -Shiloh
WILLIAMS, Thomas (Brig) - Baton Rouge

------------
Confederate Generals - mortally wounded-died of wounds
BENTON, Samuel (Brig) Atlanta *rank back dated at time of mortal wound
CARTER, John Carpenter (Brig) - Franklin
GLADDEN, Adley Hogan (Brig) - Shiloh
HANSON, Roger Weightman "Old Flintlock"(Brig) - Murfreesboro
HELM, Benjamin Hardin (Brig) - Chickamauga *note:Married the half-sister of Mary Todd Lincoln.
JOHNSTON, Albert Sidney (Full General) -Shiloh
KELLY, John Herbert (Brig) - Atlanta campaign *raid on Sherman's communications.
SCURRY, William Read (Brig) - Jenkins' Ferry
SLACK, William Yarnel (Brig) - Elkhorn Tavern *posthumously promoted
SMITH, Preston (Brig) -Chickamauga
STEVENS, Clement Hoffman "Rock" - Peach Tree Creek

There will be no doubt, many officers and men who perished during these conflicts. But, it really is telling by those in ranks of Generals or those in rank as to be posthumously promoted -- that they were in battle.

Just some thoughts.

M. E. Wolf

 

[whitworth]

Let's Balance Importance

"Well it that time again. Time to remind all you easterners that there was a Civil War west of the Mississippi River and it was important. Today marks the beginning on Gen. Stirling Price's invasion of Missouri in 1864. An action which had the potential of costing Lincoln the election of 1864, and changing the outcome of the War."

Lincoln was not going to lose the election, based on what happened in western Missouri, in late October, 1864. Sherman had captured Atlanta in early September.

However, I do think the west was important, as its more minor battles, and some major ones, clearly show the inability of the Confederacy to control much of its "Confederacy."

The Confederate army could get as far west as Westport, now Kansas City, but they had supply problems, together with less troops. Enough supplies to get there; not enough to hold any captured territory.

This happened over the war in Missouri, Kentucky, Arkansas and Tennessee.
I think neo-confederates avoid its study, because battles at Westport, Missouri; Perryville, Kentucky; Helena, Arkansas show the inability to supply their armies to gain and hold territory. The Confederacy never had the army or supplies to capture St. Louis, or recapture Memphis and Vicksburg.


Battles are remembered in the east, because of the great Richmond supply depot. The Confederate army lacked a great supply depot in Kentucky and Missouri, late in the war. It was impossible for them to battle and continue to battle, greatly, in places like Missouri.

 

[5fish]

Sherman from the west!

In the Western Theater, the story remains the same. The Confederacy in the west could not hold or maintain it own borders or control one river. It is a sad statement for the Western Confederate army for by the end of the war the Western Union army was 3.000 miles from it's main hub of ST. Louis in North Carolina.

I do believe the union control of the Mississippi River and Sherman's March through the south did demoralize the south and cause the melting away of southern resolve and of Lee's army.

In the east had the memorable battles of the war and the last nail in the Confederacy coffin but it was Sherman from the west that broke the Confederate will to fight.

 

[larry_cockerham]

5fish wrote:

"I do believe the union control of the Mississippi River and Sherman's March through the south did demoralize the south and cause the melting away of southern resolve and of Lee's army.

In the east had the memorable battles of the war and the last nail in the Confederacy coffin but it was Sherman from the west that broke the Confederate will to fight."


I respectfully submit that the south didn't remain demoralized; southern resolve has by no means melted away, and the Confederate will to fight continues to be kept alive by yankees who continue to cause the flames to glimmer by re-writing some of the historical facts of the conflict and bring about rumors concerning the meaning and originis of the the old battle flag. That 'will' lives on in the hearts and souls of many descendants walking around our land. I do not wish to start an argument in this regard, merely an observation based on years of living well south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Southern is a heritage thing. Our nation survived many wars since we took on the Pamunkey nation in 1622 with not too great results. We did better against some other folks. The American Civil War was no highlight of accomplishment either. Perhaps a better sense of freedom for all concerned grew out of the War of Northern Agression and our Great Rebellion. That sense seemed to develop to the point where we, as a unified force and people, accounted ourselves well in the two great World Wars. Let us hope the testing is over. I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[5fish]

Feel the Shame!

I respectfully submit that the south didn't remain demoralized; southern resolve has by no means melted away, and the Confederate will to fight continues to be kept alive by yankees who continue to cause the flames to glimmer by re-writing some of the historical facts of the conflict and bring about rumors concerning the meaning and originis of the the old battle flag. That 'will' lives on in the hearts and souls of many descendants walking around our land. I do not wish to start an argument in this regard, merely an observation based on years of living well south of the Mason-Dixon line.

The flames that glimmer of discontent are fanned by Southern revisionist of history. The southern revisionist can't except the truth of history and repeatedly try to justify their forefathers misguided deeds of the civil war.

I am arguing is the my fellow Southern brothers of the west forefathers failed the Southern cause by allowing the Mississippi River to be conquered by them Yankees and allowing Sherman to march east.

Instead of blaming Pres. Davis or anyone else for the the fall of the confederacy, my follow Southerns' from the east should blame our Western Southern brothers for failing us and killing our southern dream of a free Dixie..

A note the Yankees' only moved about 120miles from Washington to Appomattox in four years of war while Sherman moved more then 120 miles across Dixie to North Carolina in less then a year of the war.

Do my Southern brothers' from the west do you not have any shame? Could you have at least control one river for the entire war something to redeem yourselves.

If the Southern revisionist want to re-write history then at least put the blame for a failed free Dixie on the right perpetrators our Southern brothers forefathers of the west.....feel the shame...

 

[timewalker]

The flames that glimmer of discontent are fanned by Southern revisionist of history. The southern revisionist can't except the truth of history and repeatedly try to justify their forefathers misguided deeds of the civil war.

I am arguing is the my fellow Southern brothers of the west forefathers failed the Southern cause by allowing the Mississippi River to be conquered by them Yankees and allowing Sherman to march east.

Instead of blaming Pres. Davis or anyone else for the the fall of the confederacy, my follow Southerns' from the east should blame our Western Southern brothers for failing us and killing our southern dream of a free Dixie..

A note the Yankees' only moved about 120miles from Washington to Appomattox in four years of war while Sherman moved more then 120 miles across Dixie to North Carolina in less then a year of the war.

Do my Southern brothers' from the west do you not have any shame? Could you have at least control one river for the entire war something to redeem yourselves.

If the Southern revisionist want to re-write history then at least put the blame for a failed free Dixie on the right perpetrators our Southern brothers forefathers of the west.....feel the shame...

Yet it was generally Eastern Generals and meddling by Davis which caused so much of the mischief in the West.

 

[PINCKNEYUSMCRET]

There may be some who should feel shame, but In my opionion as a whole, the Confederate Armies especially the Grunts served well and with honor.

Pinckney

 

[OpnDownfall]

The war could be lost in the East, but it would be won in the West.
Historically, the battles in the East turned out to be holding actions until Grant and Sherman (both Westerners) moved East. A little more than a year after assuming their final army commands the war was won.
Immediately after the War actually began, Lincoln paid special attention to Md And most importantly, Mo. The Eastern and Western anchors of the remaining Border States.
Without yeoman service from Union civil and military leaders, the war in the West might have been lost at the very beginning of the war; and certainly would have prolonged the war, if the North's efforts to invade the South had to start from Ohio, rather than Mo. and Ky.

 

[bankerpapaw]

Spelling

Doug,

What east thinking? I think it is western jealousy of the east for its dominance and importance in the war.

You do have a consolation prise because it took a western like Grant to tame Lee.

I guess the west was just a training ground for Grant before he went a play with the big dog Lee.

Do you have a better story?

You might check your spelling before you send you posts.

 

[5fish]

How Could You!

You might check your spelling before you send you posts.

ATTACKS of personal destruction, how can my Southern brothers of the west be so savage in their attacks on my person.

YOUR attacks of political personal destruction will not silence this voice of your Southern brother of the east.


YOU, My Southern brothers of the west kill the dream of Free Dixie.....


I could forgive you. My Southern brothers of the west if you could have control just one river and I don't care which river but just one river under southern control for the war!!

 

[M E Wolf]

Dear List Members,

I thought I would call to attention, if those who are interested -- look at the Civil War Medal of Honor recipients. They are Union soldiers.

Unfortunately the Confederate forces did not have such a medal and or 'award' system.

However, in looking up these Medal of Honor holders for the Civil War, there is no shortage of courage on either side. Though the Confederate's side of their heroism isn't documented on the 'soldier's' level and or 'seamen' level --to apprecitate both sides--to see these MOH recipients' circumstances will help all to appreciate how much struggle there was.

I also want to say, that this thread does not detur bad spellers such as I from participating. Certainly, this would not justify another 'civil war.'
I also have great appreciation for those to whom words are hard to find, let alone spell correctly. Dyslexia affects many--the cruelity of this, is that it clouds wisdom with scrambled letters when it comes to the opportunity to type things and or write things. I hope that all will appreciate the 'spirit' of the posts --as well as look to the topic and not so much the individual.

Just some thoughts.

M. E. Wolf
Admitted horrible speller of words and language.

 

[larry_cockerham]

M.E., Sir, I believe there is a thread hidden deep in the archives of this venue which goes into considerable depth on this subject. Perhaps our monitor can retrieve it or one of the other more learned folks. The Confederate regiments did have a less formal honoring system, I believe on more of a monthly of perhaps battle basis. One of my wife's ancestors, private Hershel Glenn, was listed for the 15 Alabama after the battle at Sharpsburg/Antietam.

 

[M E Wolf]

Dear Larry Cockerham,

It is the 'less formal' honoring system within the Confederate Army, which never reaches the height of formal recognition of the MOH system, for the Federal aka Union Army/Navy/Marine soldiers, per se.

Union did have informal honors also, e.g. brevets, Kearny Medal.

The problem is--one has to 'dig' to find heros in files and hear of their bravery and what they did to earn that special notice and or honor.

But, in citing Union Medal of Honor (MoH) holders --the ones who earned it at those events west of the Eastern Theater; e.g. Vicksburg, etc.
To have earned such medals, there would have been a equally determined adversary. That is all I am attempting to proffer for thought.

The thread is on the course of 'lack of recognition.' In these MoH awards to individual --there is no doubt in my mind that anybody back in Washington did not recognized what these MoH individuals did --and, surfacely, more MoH were awarded to sailors, Marines and soldiers in other theaters of the Civil War--not just the most notable ones. So, for me--these battles that barely get mentioned--were not forgotten. Nor, should we forget them now.

There will always be heros on both sides and wearing either the Blue and or Grey/Butternut. It is our duty in the present to 'never forget.' I think this thread supports this endeavor -- 'never forget.'

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf.