Longstreet Remembering James Longstreet

[dinnie58]

Wait..... Longstreet had an indenpent command at Sulfolk and in Tenn.. He did little with either opportunity... Meade gets credit for beating Lee once.. and anyone knowing the facts knows Lee destroy his own army... so neither one were willing to take the fight to their opponents ... they were both unwilling to use their instruments(men) ...

Longstreet was attached to Bragg in Tennessee.

 

[dinnie58]

Longstreet was attached to Bragg in Tennessee.

Longstreet had to convince Bragg that he had won at Chickamauga. Bragg still wanted to retreat.

 

[War Horse]

Longstreet had to convince Bragg that he had won at Chickamauga. Bragg still wanted to retreat.

Completely disconnected to what was really happening.

 

[dinnie58]

I still think Lee could have won at Gettysburg about 3 different ways. I blame the cannonade on the morning of day 3 for the Southern failure. Bad gun powder as always.

 

[War Horse]

I still think Lee could have won at Gettysburg about 3 different ways. I blame the cannonade on the morning of day 3 for the Southern failure. Bad gun powder as always.

Actually bad fuses and the failure to bring up enough ammunition. Meade anticipated Lee's attack and made provisions to counter it. He told Hancock, if they attack it will be in your front. They have tested our flanks and Lee will now attack our center. He was correct.

 

[dinnie58]

The accuracy of Southern cannon fire was always inconsistant due to the powder mix. Almost all of the cannonade missed long. Much heavier casualties would have been inflicted with better accuracy. And you're right about the shortage and fuses.

 

[5fish]

Really?

I want to point out Meade wanted to retreat from his superior position but it was is younger officers( demanded to stay and fight) that gave him the spine to stay and fight. So really!!

Another incredibly informative post!!!!!

Okay! tell me one open field battle between Meade and Lee after Gettysburg in the late summer of 1863 and fall of 1863... let alone won by Meade... Hint: the number is neither a prime or composite number and is less than one... They basically avoided each other after Gettysburg... I will tell if Meade and engaged Lee and showed some fight maybe Grant would have never come east.

Interchangeable

Yes!!! Thier generalship styles in the grand scheme of things were the same...

Meaning they were both competent professionals that didn't throw lives away needlessly. As you may have noticed Lee inflicted no real harm on the AOP during this time frame.

Yes the throwing away of lives... argument! I call it the fear of failure the unwillingness to use their instruments(men)...

Neither operations can be deemed true independent command failures.

True... except he did have the final word in sending men into combat... unwillingness to use it...

 

[novushomus]

Longstreet believed in defensive warfare. He would let the enemy come to him instead of attacking.
Given the smaller numbers of the Confederate forces in nearly if not every engagement and the fact that you need a larger force for a successful attack, he was wise in favoring the defensive.

I'm not really sure that is the case. See my thread here: http://civilwartalk.com/threads/whe...yth-of-longstreet-and-his-generalship.130982/

A lot of objections he made to Lee at Gettysburg were not necessarily that an attack would not succeed, but more troops were needed. The day after the battle he told Fremantle that 30,000 troops could have successfully made Pickett's charge and one of his main remonstrations on July 2 was that he wanted to wait for Pickett's division so he could go in with his full corps.

The idea we get of Longstreet being a defensive general comes from his postwar writings and the pen of Michael Shaara.

During the Suffolk Campaign, he acted defensively because his orders required him to be prepared to return to Lee's army in case Hooker moved. He pinned in Peck's garrison and allowed his wagons to collect forage. D.H. Hill, under Longstreet's nominal authority with Kemper's brigade from Pickett, did launch some tactically offensive operations but overall Longstreet did not have operational freedom given his objectives.

 

[novushomus]

I want to point out that Gen. Longstreet and Gen. Meade were similar as generals. I want to point out that both would fight if forced to or had to but neither never went out looking for a fight. When either one had independent command nothing ever happened. Longstreet command would always end in a siege of a city and Meade command marched around Virginia somehow never engaging the enemy. It seems they both could administrate and move a large force of troops and supplies effectively but could never effectively use their large force in engaging the enemy. It seems they lack the ability to bring the fight to the enemy on their own unless directed to. They both filled the same role for the superior commanders Grant and Lee. They were great second in commands, Great Lieutenants.

Neither Meade nor Longstreet could commit their forces to combat if they were in command but could commit their forces to combat if directed to and fight well...

That assertion would come as surprise to men who fought at Campbell's Station, Fort Sanders, Bean's Station, Strawberry Plains, and Rappahannock Station that nothing ever happened with Meade and Longstreet in command.

 

[Rebforever]

Be careful, have a good time, hope there are no protesters.

 

[novushomus]

Longstreet had to convince Bragg that he had won at Chickamauga. Bragg still wanted to retreat.

That's not entirely accurate. No one in the Army of Tennessee high command knew that Rosecrans and Thomas had disengaged until late in the morning of September 21, when St. John Liddell sent skirmishers out and found that was no enemy to the army's front and for the very first time the army was in possession of a battlefield.

Longstreet and Bragg met only once on September 20, with Longstreet wanting forces from Polk's Right Wing to follow up his success on the left. Bragg was up to his collar with Polk and Hill's shenanigans that morning, and falsely believed that Polk's wing was fought out (when Cheatham's division, Polk's largest, was not seriously engaged that day) and told Longstreet so.

 

[War Horse]

I want to point out Meade wanted to retreat from his superior position but it was is younger officers( demanded to stay and fight) that gave him the spine to stay and fight. So really!!

He never wanted to retreat. He did what any responsible commanding general unfamiliar with the ground would do. He called a counsel of war and asked his officers their opinion of the ground. Once he ascertained it was good ground he did an amazing job of concentrating and coordinating his army.

Okay! tell me one open field battle between Meade and Lee after Gettysburg in the late summer of 1863 and fall of 1863... let alone won by Meade... Hint: the number is neither a prime or composite number and is less than one... They basically avoided each other after Gettysburg... I will tell if Meade and engaged Lee and showed some fight maybe Grant would have never come east.

There were more than just cavalry and rearguard scraps. They certainly did not avoid each other. Each planned and plotted to destroy they other. It was in some ways a brilliant game of chess between two very capable soldiers.

Yes!!! Thier generalship styles in the grand scheme of things were the same...

Is that suppose to be derogatory? Both were generals of extremely high capabilities.

Yes the throwing away of lives argument...

So your in favor of headlong attacks sacrificing thousands of lives because the numeric numbers work in your favor.

True... except he did have the final word in sending men into combat... unwillingness to use it...

At Knoxville was the attack order not given? It was and it failed. Due primarily to McLaws and Jenkins reluctance to engage. As Longstreet said to McLaws in a letter. "I am entirely convinced that our only safety is in making the assault upon the enemy's position to-morrow at daylight, and it is the more important that I should have the entire support and co-operation of the officers in this connection, and I do hope and trust that I may have your entire support and all of the force you may be possessed in the execution of my views. It is a great mistake to suppose that there is any safety for us in going to Virginia if General Bragg has been defeated, for we leave him at the mercy of his victors, and with his army destroyed our own had better be disgraced. There is neither safety nor honor in any other course than the one I have chosen and ordered."

He did not have the full co-operation of his commanders. A fact that would lead him to bring charges against McLaws.

 

[Rebforever]

I was going to give you a 'like' on General Meade, but I do disagree about Longstreet.

 

[War Horse]

I was going to give you a 'like' on General Meade, but I do disagree about Longstreet.

Oh well Maybe next time.

 

[Rebforever]

Oh well Maybe next time.

You are right about Meade. Everyone forgets what happened after Gettysburg and Lee's retreat fight all the way back to
Mine Run!

 

[War Horse]

You are right about Meade. Everyone forgets what happened after Gettysburg and Lee's retreat fight all the way back to
Mine Run!

Yep and Meade did order an attack at Mine Run, Warren who had confidently told Meade an assault in his front could be carried and was reinforced with 2 of Frences brigades. Warren however failed to jump off. This can hardly be blamed on Meade.

 

[Rebforever]

Yep and Meade did order an attack at Mine Run, Warren who had confidently told Meade an assault in his front could be carried and was reinforced with 2 of Frences brigades. Warren however failed to jump off. This can hardly be blamed on Meade.

Was that after Lee was behind mine run or the fighting previous to that attack order?

 

[War Horse]

Was that after Lee was behind mine run or the fighting previous to that attack order?

After Lee was behind Mine Run. Warren had approx 28k men with the addition of Frences brigades. Warren claimed that during the night Lee reinforced his line on the right making it no longer practical to attack. Meade waited the attack and grew frustrated as time passed. He rode to Warren who then explained his reasoning.

 

[5fish]

Campbell's Station, Fort Sanders, Bean's Station,

Okay so Longstreet did send is men into a few small fights nothing on the scale of a true battle... No great victories bit a couple failures...

Rappahannock Station

Okay, Meade broke the line but it fizzled... no great fights with Lee... His lack of aggression is why Grant came east...

Again, the two men are interchangeable...

 

[5fish]

Yep and Meade did order an attack at Mine Run, Warren who had confidently told Meade an assault in his front could be carried and was reinforced with 2 of Frences brigades. Warren however failed to jump off. This can hardly be blamed on Meade.

If I remember right Lee was going to do one of his great flanking moves at Mine Run but Meade had withdrawn from the field... Lucky Meade like to avoid fights...