Ramrods at reenactments

[52ndFandS]

Guess that explains why they often look as if shooting at a strafing plane......otherwise powder wouldn't remain in place.

Assume revolvers at least use wax or some minimal wadding.

I've known ot to be all manner of things. I prever cornstarch.

 

[archieclement]

I've been reenacting for five years. I've seen medical emergencies and injuries, not a single one of them had anything to do with a musket. I and multiple others went down with heat exhaustion at Gettysburg two years ago, one guy hurt himself by stepping in a hole he couldn't see in a farmer field during marching, another gave himself a concussion by not ducking under a branch in time, and a spectator tripped over a tree root. That's two injuries from trees have we considered banning those? Wool uniforms in heat? Not drilling because we might trip?

I had a concussion ice skating. Pretty much every figure skater has at least one, but you don't see us out there wearing helmets and pads. There's a degree of risk, we accept that. Maybe reenacting should too and do what's historically accurate? (besides the obvious)

Unfortunately I think there's two factors at play these days....

One an overly ligationous society, people who perhaps accepted the risk going into something......flip when some lawyer offers possibility of winning a lottery......which then the threat of lawsuits from such nimrods ruin it for everyone.....

Two....there just seems a paranoia this days from part of society.....just look at unreasonable fear of many things that are actually on par with chance of getting struck by lightning or worse...........that something is actually quite safe becomes irrelevant to these types...........

 

[52ndFandS]

IMHO drill in any unit should be absolutely mandatory on a regular basis. If you know drill backwards and forwards the odds of your sending a ramrod or a live round at anyone should be nhil.

Personally I don't keep live rounds sitting around and losing a vital part of my weapon is a strange, foreign concept to me.

In fact what are you doing with live rounds around sentient beings innthe first place?!? I can be a little absent-minded when cooking but not shooting. That really weirds me out.

But mistakes were made during the ACW, not just reenactments. I think we've all heard the 'loading, loading, loading, not firing, loading' story before. But that was obviously because of a bit of nerves on account of loss of life or various pieces and parts of your anatomy. THAT however is combat.

But the ramrod itself is a tricky thing to hold onto as well. I was reading a magazine, it was long ago and the name escapes me. A man and his hound were out hunting in the late 80s. They came across a small creekbed and he noticed a thin metal rod sticking out of the ground. He moved on a few more feet and found another, then another. Come to find out that in a skirmish line it was wasn't very common but on occasion rods were thrown into the ground so they could be grabbed and used for a faster rate of fire.

If the unit in question had to take off at a run they might, and in this case did, forget a very important implement for a firearm.

I understand the standards that need to be met to ensure safety. I know my weapons, I drill by myself (snap caps) at times just to keep up on firing. Amlnd irritate my neighbors. (As a side note they both volunteerfor the NPS especiallyACW. I guess my dust and drab bugs them.)

Learing by wrote can be a very good thing. With some it leads to some very sloppy results however. One case of the 'yeah, yeah, yeahs' can be a pickle.

So for me I see zero issue in using a rod in the field, provided a rider is signed by YOU or your unit's insurance policy has a "you big dummy" clause.

It's not exactly living history without that or bayonets. The latter being something shouldn't be brought toward spectators or 'those people' on the other side. But don't it look good?

If there were for the sake of argument a Little Roundtop reenactment (and I know, no weapons in the park) exactly how to you make that weird, quite off putting maneuver without bayonets?

In the words of the late hockey announcer Don Cherry when asked about new rulings to cut down fighting on the ice he replied, "What are they gonna do then? Write eachother nasty letters?"

Every single piece in your kit is a part of history. Even my ridiculous Bowie. In a pinch a bayonet can make a pretty good candleholder if you don't have a lantern from Sutler's row.

If kids are involved, school trips, ETC, all bets should be off as to anything sharp or that could kill ya. And that should be imparted on those children as much as possible. And some adults need reminders too. Nothing like a field hospital reenactment to get that across.

You can only pretend so far. If its minutiae, I guess OK. But giant holes in history ain't cricket, IMO.

In the end you're doing something mildly dangerous. It's exactly what mom told you not to do. You don't point guns at people unless you're going to shoot them. We do. You most definitely do not put a whole lot of people together in a line and have them do that kinda thing. We do. And don't do it in the house. Some would if they could.

These rules are bent or broken for the sake of history. And let's face it, life is dangerous.

Getting up in the morning, getting out of bed, showering, crossing the road, sticking your face in a metal bladed rotating fan.

You know, I lost my train of thought.

Tangents, tangents. I do go off on them.

Unfortunately I think there's two factors at play these days....

One an overly ligationous society, people who perhaps accepted the risk going into something......flip when some lawyer offers possibility of winning a lottery......which then the threat of lawsuits from such nimrods ruin it for everyone.....

Two....there just seems a paranoia this days from part of society.....just look at unreasonable fear of many things that are actually on par with chance of getting struck by lightning or worse...........that something is actually quite safe becomes irrelevant to these types...........

Agreed. And you said in a sentence and two paragraphs what I was trying to. Just better. I need tontake writing lessons from you.

 

[drezac]

Probably because it's easier for someone else to point out a rammer left in a cannon than with muskets, since at least 3 people are operating a cannon compared to one person per musket

With a gun crew, you have a gunner that is in charge of the gun. He is observing the gun crew at all steps of the loading procedure and has the final say on firing the gun. The gunner can instantly correct any problems that occur. Where with infantry, each individual is handling the weapon on their own, and the officers are watching at least several men or more, so don't observe all the steps that each individual is doing.

 

[Never Fight Uphill Me Boy]

In the words of the late hockey announcer Don Cherry when asked about new rulings to cut down fighting on the ice he replied, "What are they gonna do then? Write eachother nasty letters?"

Don Cherry is still alive though... unless a reenactor shot him with a ramrod earlier today.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

With a gun crew, you have a gunner that is in charge of the gun. He is observing the gun crew at all steps of the loading procedure and has the final say on firing the gun. The gunner can instantly correct any problems that occur. Where with infantry, each individual is handling the weapon on their own, and the officers are watching at least several men or more, so don't observe all the steps that each individual is doing.

It's actually incredibly simple for a file closer behind the line to keep an eye on the men in front of him. If the company has the requisite number of NCOs, they really only need to keep an eye on 8-10 guys. Especially when firing by volley when everyone is doing all the steps at more or less the same time, it's a very easy thing to pick out the one person who's doing it wrong. Additionally, if you're drilling the men regularly you will know which of your men you need to keep a closer eye on.

To my mind, it's not really the safety or the threat of injury we're dealing with here. It's the fact that most people want to run without walking. Guns crewed by four men, 30 man companies with little NCO coverage, or worse, 20 man companies with more stripes than not, but a lack of drill knowledge and the compunction to practice it.

As someone stated earlier, the far bigger threat to the health of reenactors is heat stroke. If one can't be bothered to hydrate and stay in some basic minimum of physical constitution, what business do they have adding explosives to the mix, particularly if they have to change/add/adjust the original drills to accommodate their own deficiencies?

 

[thomas aagaard]

Interestingly, one of the questions I asked in the original post went unaddressed: what is the responsibility of commanders in setting or following safety rules?

As I see it the event organizers makes the rules.
I can then follow them... or stay away.

And it is the responsibility of both the unit commander and every member of the unit to both follow them, and only do what you are qualified to do. If your are not 100% sure you can safely use the ramrods, then don't use it.
The same with fixing bayonets.

The largest formation I have commanded was a small danish platoon of 15 men in the ranks split into two sections, where I also commanded one section. (and a nco commanded the other)

We did not use the ramrod during the opposed part of the battle demonstration, but we did in the first part, where we where firing out over open water...
Even if there was no danger to anyone, that is not something I would do, unless I was sure that my people where able to do so without firing a 200 year old ramrods into the water.
And the fact that I had only to keep an eye on 8 muskets also helped a lot...
(exactly like The Ninth Ohio also mention... the structure mattes also)

Also I might yell and even curse at them to load quicker or run faster... but that should always be understood as "do at the best speed possible that you feel safe doing.

But mistakes were made during the ACW, not just reenactments. I think we've all heard the 'loading, loading, loading, not firing, loading' story before. But that was obviously because of a bit of nerves on account of loss of life or various pieces and parts of your anatomy. THAT however is combat.

There is this idea that reenactors will never be as good as the men back then. And that idea is just flat out wrong.
It is well documented that many of both Meade's and Lee's men in 63/64 had serious issues with correctly loading and firing their guns.. and cleaning them afterwards.
Any reenactors who do live firing most likely know 10x more than the typical civil war soldiers about marksmanship, ballistics and similar. The men back then drilled a lot... and their daily drill actually resulted in wrong muscle memory.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Reading through this most interesting thread, here's what I learned.

Everyone on all sides is entrenched and stubborn on the issue towards any view but they're own and supportive of it.

Also I'm wondering if I should target practice with a ramrod for experiments.

 

[52ndFandS]

As I see it the event organizers makes the rules.
I can then follow them... or stay away.

And it is the responsibility of both the unit commander and every member of the unit to both follow them, and only do what you are qualified to do. If your are not 100% sure you can safely use the ramrods, then don't use it.
The same with fixing bayonets.

The largest formation I have commanded was a small danish platoon of 15 men in the ranks split into two sections, where I also commanded one section. (and a nco commanded the other)

We did not use the ramrod during the opposed part of the battle demonstration, but we did in the first part, where we where firing out over open water...
Even if there was no danger to anyone, that is not something I would do, unless I was sure that my people where able to do so without firing a 200 year old ramrods into the water.
And the fact that I had only to keep an eye on 8 muskets also helped a lot...
(exactly like The Ninth Ohio also mention... the structure mattes also)

Also I might yell and even curse at them to load quicker or run faster... but that should always be understood as "do at the best speed possible that you feel safe doing.



There is this idea that reenactors will never be as good as the men back then. And that idea is just flat out wrong.
It is well documented that many of both Meade's and Lee's men in 63/64 had serious issues with correctly loading and firing their guns.. and cleaning them afterwards.
Any reenactors who do live firing most likely know 10x more than the typical civil war soldiers about marksmanship, ballistics and similar. The men back then drilled a lot... and their daily drill actually resulted in wrong muscle memory.

On.the contrary. Reenactors are far 'better' I guess you can say because of the knowledge of ballistics, FPS, ETC. The common soldier in the field then had history behind him, sure. But it was from a century before when the weapons were far less accurate and oft just as dangerous to the shooter.

We have 150+ years. That makes the modern campaigner a tad wiser than the man in the field in the 1860s. The man in the field had horse sense if he survived and he certainly wasn't feeling the buzz from his cell in the pocket of his depoy jacket.

It was said best in movie based on a layer war that hot food and cold beer don't win wars. Add that is living history/hobby now and one can imagine had it been the same then.

The soldier then had very little drill as far as small arms than they did marching or moving formations. Three shots in a minute or whatever it was is crazy now as it was then. So our knowledge makes us just smart enough to hurt ourselves, just as their lack did too.

As far as properly shooting and cleaning weapons. Each unit was its own individual e tity and by 1864/65 they were really pulling for troops down south. I began read of units with ten or eleven of the original troops in them. In fact I had a relative that was consolidated with four other Tennessee units.

If you don't have the time to train men to the same level as the 'old guard' then you will have e sloppy drill, firing, ETC.

I've referred to Joe Johnston as an able trainer, motivator, commissary and all around inspiring general. But at Atlanta he lacked what Hoid had, fight. Had they been able to stand eachother the war might have turned out differently. But I can't stand 'what if' unless I'm armchairing it with friends.

So maybe we're both right in a sense. Sometimes two different options can join and make a fact. Or a reasonable facsimile there of.

 

[52ndFandS]

Reading through this most interesting thread, here's what I learned.

Everyone on all sides is entrenched and stubborn on the issue towards any view but they're own and supportive of it.

Also I'm wondering if I should target practice with a ramrod for experiments.

You'll never get an argument from me about range time.

 

[Sgt Williams]

At our local reenactments, we strictly forbid drawing ramrods except for 1st Sgts (me) for safety checking weapons. We get a lot of new participants. They cant be expected to be savvy enough to know safety protocols regarding ramrods with such little experience. That's OK. We try to keep everyone safe. Occasionally we do living history or demonstrations with limited, experienced reenactors. Then we ram paper. Its nice because the rammed paper makes a better pop and a provides a it more recoil. But for safety sake, at general reenactments. mostly we prohibit drawing of ramrods on the field. Everyone is fine with these rules. We once shot a ramrod with 60 grains of black powder at a 30 degree angle out of an 1853 Enfield. It flew about 60 feet and stuck in the ground like a spear at a 45 degree angle and actually put a slight bend in the ramrod. It could cause some serious damage if done accidentally at a reenactment.

 

[Sgt Williams]

We also sometimes do a fastest shooter contest where everyone rams paper and fires three shots in the fastest time. Its lots of fun, but it is under a very controlled situation supervised by our Captain. Each shooter has a monitor for safety and to count the shots.
When we inspect arms before a battle, everyone draws their ramrod and drops it in their barrel for me to inspect. If anyone forgets to return it before they prime and fire a cap to make sure the barrel is clear, they owe the company a case of beer.