Question on Repeaters

[Philip Leigh]

Sounds like one heck of a reserve to have on hand for emergencies. Then again as noted above the Union army only purchased 1,700 Henry Rifles, with that little amount of rifles it seems like the only way you really can use them is for ad-hoc or more specialized roles.

Speaking of which, would you happen to know how common was the Spencer among Union cavalry by the end of the war ?

I don't know specifically how common it was among the cavalry, but by the end of the war the Union army had procured 100,000 repeaters.* On March 1, 1865 War Secretary Edwin Stanton directed that all Union troops be equipped with breech-loading, if not repeating, rifles.**

* Paddy Griffth, Battle Tactics of the Civil War (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1989), 80
** The more common breech-loaders were loaded one cartridge at a time.

 

[redbob]

The Spencer was THE carbine by the end of the war, during the winter of 1864 - 65 Gen Wilson was preparing his cavalry ready for raid into Alabama & Georgia. It wanted ALL his troops armed with Spencer. He even left 2 brigades behind as they could not get enough Spencer's for them.

Also, there were Union Cavalry and Horse borne Infantry that used the Spencer Rifles. The later Model 1865 Spencer Carbines/Rifles used the stabilizer cutoffs to limit firing to a single shot mode, supposedly in an effort to save ammunition. Over 200,000 Spencer Carbines and Rifles were manufactured between 1860 and 1869 in .56 & .52 calibers.

 

[CW Watch & Sword Guy]

I understand that two regiments of the Michigan Cavalry Brigade, the Wolverines, were among the first federal units to be equipped with the Spencer repeating carbines. Were these weapons supplied by the federal government or the State of Michigan? Also, how many rounds would each man typically have carried for these faster firing weapons?

 

[redbob]

I understand that two regiments of the Michigan Cavalry Brigade, the Wolverines, were among the first federal units to be equipped with the Spencer repeating carbines. How many rounds would each man typically have carried for these faster firing weapons?

If they were issued the 13 tube Blakeslee Cartridge Boxes, they could have been carrying as many as 91 in the box and 7 more in the weapon. Also, the Michigan Cavalry units were also issued Spencer Rifles to carry as the production of carbines couldn't keep up with the demand.

 

[johan_steele]

The Spencer rifle came first, no carbine was available prior to the fall of 1863 as they simply didn't exist yet. The Blakeslee didn't reach the troops until very late war. Before the Blakeslee box standard cartridge boxes were used.

 

[CW Watch & Sword Guy]

The Spencer rifle came first, no carbine was available prior to the fall of 1863 as they simply didn't exist yet. The Blakeslee didn't reach the troops until very late war. Before the Blakeslee box standard cartridge boxes were used.

So on the East Cavalry Field, on July 3, 1863, would the Wolverines defending the Rummel Farm have had Spencer rifles or Spencer carbines? All the sources I've read say carbines, but JS seems to be saying that was impossible. And how many rounds would each man have been carrying, assuming his cartridge box was full at the start?

 

[johan_steele]

So on the East Cavalry Field, on July 3, 1863, would the Wolverines defending the Rummel Farm have had Spencer rifles or Spencer carbines? All the sources I've read say carbines, but JS seems to be saying that was impossible. And how many rounds would each man have been carrying, assuming his cartridge box was full at the start?

They would have been carrying Spencer Rifles, the Spencer carbine did not exist yet. IIRC not until Oct 1863... a little after Gettysburg. I believe those men had been issued 200 rds each prior to the battle.

 

[1903sprfld]

anyone know what Buford's troops were using when they were defending Gettysburg

 

[redbob]

anyone know what Buford's troops were using when they were defending Gettysburg

I believe that they had Sharp's carbines, there has been quite the controversy that they had Spencer's; but as Johan has stated, the Spencer carbines were not issued until October of 1863.

 

[CW Watch & Sword Guy]

They would have been carrying Spencer Rifles, the Spencer carbine did not exist yet. IIRC not until Oct 1863... a little after Gettysburg. I believe those men had been issued 200 rds each prior to the battle.

Thanks very much. That's a detail that many of the sources seem to get wrong.

 

[johan_steele]

anyone know what Buford's troops were using when they were defending Gettysburg

Buford's men had Sharps, Smith & Burnside carbines. The first shot of the battle was from a Sharps carbine.

 

[johan_steele]

Thanks very much. That's a detail that many of the sources seem to get wrong.

Some needed an excuse for US success and claiming Buford's men had repeaters has always been a theme.

Edited; inflammatory

 

[Legion Para]

So I was reading older threads on here about repeaters and I came across someone mentioning that soldiers might save up money to buy one on their own.

Which left me wondering, if a soldier did purchase a repeater to use with his own money how would that even work in the context of the rest of his unit? I can't imagine everyone in a company or regiment going along with "Everyone has rifled muskets, except that one guy who has a repeater."

Would the man with the repeater take on a more specialized role instead?

To expand on the question a little bit, what if a whole company of infantry has breech loaders or repeaters while the rest of the regiment has rifled muskets? Would that company become designated skirmishers for the regiment?

I'm just a bit confused on the role of soldiers using something other than a rifled musket in an infantry unit...

If you do a search on this forum, you will find some excellent threads on repeaters. Members of Wilder's Brigade carried Spencer and Henry rifles at Chickamauga.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/wilders-brigade-and-henry-rifles.85666/#post-662901

I know member @44 Henry and he is extremely knowledgeable on this subject. Search his threads.

 

[Craig L Barry]

If you do a search on this forum, you will find some excellent threads on repeaters. Members of Wilder's Brigade carried Spencer and Henry rifles at Chickamauga.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/wilders-brigade-and-henry-rifles.85666/#post-662901

I know member @44 Henry and he is extremely knowledgeable on this subject. Search his threads.

"Wilder's Brigade" put on quite a show with their repeaters at the STRI battlefield park earlier this month. Always a treat when they come out for a program.

 

[Legion Para]

"Wilder's Brigade" put on quite a show with their repeaters at the STRI battlefield park earlier this month. Always a treat when they come out for a program.

I second that.

 

[redbob]

One of the Army's contracts called for 34,500 Spencer carbines at $25.00 each to be delivered in 1864 and by June 30, 1866; 94,196 Spencer Carbines, 13,171 Spencer Rifles and 58,000,000 Spencer cartridges had been delivered. There are accounts of Confederates using captured Spencer's, but when the ammunition for them was expended; they were discarded. The Model 1865's Spencer stabilizer cut offs were easily removed making them rapid fire again instead of a single shot.

 

[Philip Leigh]

The Lost Cause has always needed an excuse for US success and claiming Buford's men had repeaters has always been a theme. So much so that others have taken it as fact. Thus the truth to the adages that a lie travels half way around the world before the truth is ever uttered and a liftoff often enough garners a measure of truth.

Similarly, some have long ignored the fact that Buford's single-shot breechloading carbines had a much quicker firing rate than Rebel muzzleloaders. The stationary Rebel infantrymen could shoot at best three rounds a minute whereas Buford's men could fire as many as nine rounds per minute. Moreover, the reloading procedure required Confederate infantrymen to stand thereby presenting a larger target than Buford's Yankee cavalrymen who could remain prone.

Edited, inflammatory

 

[Saphroneth]

Union Ordnance Chief James Ripley* was reluctant to adopt breech-loading rifles out of concern that the soldiers would consume ammunition too rapidly.

Actually Ripley ordered so many breechloaders in the first part of the war that the companies producing them were swamped. He focused on muzzle loaders because they could be produced.

Per Cerebropetrologist on AH.com:

• Sharps- 6,000 carbines ordered 4 July 1861; contracted to 'supply this department with Sharp's carbines to the utmost capacity of your factory until further orders' on 21 December 1861, with further such orders being made for 3 months from 26 June 1862, 9 September 1862, and 19 December 1862; 1,000 rifles ordered 27 January 1862, 1,000 more ordered 6 February 1862; 2,000 rifles and 22,933 carbines delivered by January 1863.
• Burnside- 800 ordered 16 July 1861, 7,500 ordered 27 August 1861, 2,500 ordered 21 November 1861; 5,244 weapons delivered by January 1863.
• Smith's- 10,000 ordered on 27 August 1861, 7,000 delivered by January 1863.
• Gallagher- 5,000 ordered 17 September 1861; 5,000 more ordered 22 September 1862; 7,162 delivered by January 1863.
• Marsh- 25,000 ordered 14 October 1861, none ever delivered.
• Merrill/Jenks- 600 ordered 25 October 1861; 5,000 ordered 24 December 1861; 1,400 ordered 28 November 1862; 5,901 delivered by January 1863.
• Gibbs- 10,000 ordered 13 December 1861, first delivery of 550 made 30 May 1863.
• Cosmopolitan/Union/Illinois- 1,140 ordered 23 December 1861, order completed 2 July 1862; 2,000 more ordered 4 August 1862, with 1,000 delivered 11 April 1863.
• Spencer- 10,000 ordered 26 December 1861; 600 delivered by January 1863.

With the 1861 orders not even half fulfilled by the end of 1862, it's pretty clear Ripley was actually asking more from the Breechloader industry than it could manage. The regular Springfield rifle was hard enough for private industry to abruptly tool up to produce, and Ripley's choice for arming the whole army was pretty much "Springfields or nothing" so he went Springfields.

Perhaps he was hostile to the breechloader, but it's hard to see how he could have gotten any more breechloaders without leaving large chunks of the Union army just plain without weapons at all. (i.e. by retooling Springfield to produce breechloaders.)

 

[Saphroneth]

Moreover, the reloading procedure required Confederate infantrymen to stand thereby presenting a larger target than Buford's Yankee cavalrymen who could remain prone.

This isn't actually strictly true - it was quite possible to reload a muzzle loader lying down, though it was slower. It was even in the contemporary (British) drillbook. Essentially you place the butt of the gun at your feet, lower than the barrel (which is near your head) and load it that way.
It's cumbersome but means you're not exposed.


For ACW troops the move up to breechloaders was probably a straight battlefield upgrade (and only a disadvantage logistically) but for other contemporary troops there was a danger of "schnellfeur" (the term given to it by the Prussians) being adopted without orders. That is, the soldier fires off all his ammunition as fast as possible because it feels like "doing something" and because he knows that once his ammunition is all fired off he will not be expected to remain in combat.*

This was a real concern during the switch to beechloaders, as a maximum-rate muzzle loader with 60 rounds will last 20-30 minutes while a maximum-rate breechloader will last only 6-8 minutes - and once a breechloader formation has fired off all their ammunition they're actually in quite a lot of danger. This led to a switch from "independent fire" back to "controlled fire" in the British army, with the term "fire" re-entering the language of drill. (During the days of the P1853 Enfield the soldier was permitted to fire in his own time for greater accuracy; during the days of the Snider-Enfield or Martini-Henry the soldier was only permitted to give fire when commanded.)



* to be clear, the reason why this was not a concern for battlefield effectiveness for ACW troops was that only a very small number of ACW troops were given proper rifle training. For a rifle-trained soldier to Schnellfeur means he's not aiming properly, and his hit rate drops more than his bullet output increases, but for a soldier without rifle training there's little difference - his hit rate is already bad.

 

[Philip Leigh]

Actually Ripley ordered so many breechloaders in the first part of the war that the companies producing them were swamped. He focused on muzzle loaders because they could be produced.

Per Cerebropetrologist on AH.com:

• Sharps- 6,000 carbines ordered 4 July 1861; contracted to 'supply this department with Sharp's carbines to the utmost capacity of your factory until further orders' on 21 December 1861, with further such orders being made for 3 months from 26 June 1862, 9 September 1862, and 19 December 1862; 1,000 rifles ordered 27 January 1862, 1,000 more ordered 6 February 1862; 2,000 rifles and 22,933 carbines delivered by January 1863.
• Burnside- 800 ordered 16 July 1861, 7,500 ordered 27 August 1861, 2,500 ordered 21 November 1861; 5,244 weapons delivered by January 1863.
• Smith's- 10,000 ordered on 27 August 1861, 7,000 delivered by January 1863.
• Gallagher- 5,000 ordered 17 September 1861; 5,000 more ordered 22 September 1862; 7,162 delivered by January 1863.
• Marsh- 25,000 ordered 14 October 1861, none ever delivered.
• Merrill/Jenks- 600 ordered 25 October 1861; 5,000 ordered 24 December 1861; 1,400 ordered 28 November 1862; 5,901 delivered by January 1863.
• Gibbs- 10,000 ordered 13 December 1861, first delivery of 550 made 30 May 1863.
• Cosmopolitan/Union/Illinois- 1,140 ordered 23 December 1861, order completed 2 July 1862; 2,000 more ordered 4 August 1862, with 1,000 delivered 11 April 1863.
• Spencer- 10,000 ordered 26 December 1861; 600 delivered by January 1863.

Please note, I specified Ripley's reluctance to deploy breechloading rifles, which would be used by infantry. Ripley had long favored breechloading carbines, a cavalry firearm.