Insignia Question about false embroidery

[Phogan87]

An odd question that I can't seem to get a straight answer from the Internet so I thought I'd revisit the forum. I've read a couple of things that seem to indicate that a forage cap with false embroidery brass insignia (numbers, letters…) was most likely that of an officer. I have a forged cap from the 177th Pennsylvania volunteers that was once part of the MOLLUS collection And I think I have its original owner narrowed down to two individuals. Any help with this question would be great.

 

[Phogan87]

The cap that I own is the same one on page 87 of the book "US Army head gear 1812 to 1872"

 

[FrankN]

I'm not able to answer your question but that's a very cool forage cap that you have!

Frank

 

[Salterr]

False embroidered insignia is meant for officers. There are however examples of enlisted men having used a false embroidered horn on their caps in New Hampshire. I can't see the buttons but are they enlisted or officer buttons? Also the interior, what's it look like? Officers made more so a higher quality lining would be possible for them

 

[Phogan87]

False embroidered insignia is meant for officers. There are however examples of enlisted men having used a false embroidered horn on their caps in New Hampshire. I can't see the buttons but are they enlisted or officer buttons? Also the interior, what's it look like? Officers made more so a higher quality lining would be possible for them

Thanks for your input! Here are photos of the buttons and the interior.

 

[Salterr]

Thanks for your input! Here are photos of the buttons and the interior.

View attachment 553218

View attachment 553219

General service buttons and a standard non quilted liner points me to believe it's just an enlisted guys cap. However an officer could wear his old hat once promoted. In the case of the false embroidered pieces they may just be what the soldier chose in this case instead of the plain lettering

 

[Salterr]

@Package4 what are your thoughts? Enlisted with false embroidered pieces or officer with enlisted buttons. I believe it to be enlisted

 

[Phogan87]

If it helps with your analysis at all, I found that this forage cap was donated to the MOLLUS museum in 1886 based on the inventory number (86.15.26). My understanding is that the vast majority of the items in the museum were items donated by members who were all officers. This being said, I don't know if this assumption is correct.

 

[Package4]

If it helps with your analysis at all, I found that this forage cap was donated to the MOLLUS museum in 1886 based on the inventory number (86.15.26). My understanding is that the vast majority of the items in the museum were items donated by members who were all officers. This being said, I don't know if this assumption is correct.

For what it is worth, your forage cap is a standard federal enlisted kepi, the false embroidered letters and numbers were easily sourced by sutlers. A typical officer's forage cap would have a silk lining/padded, no buckle on the chin strap, a bound brim and buttons of either staff or infantry. All of that said (or typed), an officer without means could have grabbed an enlisted forage cap to use, but typically they wanted to stand out from the enlisted. Officers had to supply their own uniforms and accouterments and would typically go to one of the main suppliers for such gear, SH&G, Brooks Brothers or the local sutler who could take an order.

I have seen enlisted gear turned into officer's wear temporarily when a noncom was promoted, in fact I have two uniform pieces from different soldiers, one an enlisted pair of sky blue kersey trousers with a blue stripe professionally added in the seam. The other is a frock coat with the shadow of sergeant stripes with shoulder straps, both are identified.

I think your piece most likely was worn by an enlisted man IMHO.

Very nice piece and I remember that cap from the collection!

 

[Phogan87]

I really appreciate everybody's time. I really appreciate the information both of you have provided.

 

[Phogan87]

Final question if I may. I found two members of the 177th Pennsylvania that were in MOLLUS in 1886. While there are always exceptions to the rule, is it safe to say that the majority of items in the MOLLUS collection in the early years came from the members themselves, thereby a strong likelihood, but no guarantees, that this forage cap came from one of these two individuals?

 

[Salterr]

Final question if I may. I found two members of the 177th Pennsylvania that were in MOLLUS in 1886. While there are always exceptions to the rule, is it safe to say that the majority of items in the MOLLUS collection in the early years came from the members themselves, thereby a strong likelihood, but no guarantees, that this forage cap came from one of these two individuals?

In the very beginning it was the soldiers who donated but it changed to include all sorts of donations and memberships from honorary members and descendants of the soldiers. Is there documentation at all within the organization of when or who donated. Maybe you can trace it through a family member who donated his grandfathers kepi or something

 

[Phogan87]

I really appreciate it!

 

[Package4]

Final question if I may. I found two members of the 177th Pennsylvania that were in MOLLUS in 1886. While there are always exceptions to the rule, is it safe to say that the majority of items in the MOLLUS collection in the early years came from the members themselves, thereby a strong likelihood, but no guarantees, that this forage cap came from one of these two individuals?

I have to think that there are records somewhere detailing the donations and who may have made them.

If it helps with your analysis at all, I found that this forage cap was donated to the MOLLUS museum in 1886 based on the inventory number (86.15.26). My understanding is that the vast majority of the items in the museum were items donated by members who were all officers. This being said, I don't know if this assumption is correct.

that date may not be correct or the museum existed prior to charter, but their website states that the museum was chartered in 1888. The museum and MOLLUS still exist though they are now separate entities as of the 1970s and records of donations may still exist. A little patience and footwork should prove invaluable and quite possibly id your wonderful piece!