Quantrill's Raid

[Patrick H]

I believe they did report it up the chain, nothing happened higher up......whether that garrison was considered unreliable or easily "spooked" don't know, maybe like lefty they thought they were just coming over for some harmless fun.....in hindsight seems pretty big failure to use available intelligence

Thanks, Archie. I was unaware that the incursion was reported "up the line." Somebody sure screwed up, didn't he?

 

[archieclement]

Thanks, Archie. I was unaware that the incursion was reported "up the line." Somebody sure screwed up, didn't he?

But I reckon the higher ups would have become as susceptible to laxness from false alarms as Lawrence in fairness.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

But I reckon the higher ups would have become as susceptible to laxness from false alarms as Lawrence in fairness.

What was meant by "up the line"? Leavenworth, Topeka, Independence? Kansas City was not yet much of a city. Where were the large Union garrisons in the region? And wouldn't Q's troops take care to cut telegraph wires they came across during their ride? They would certainly have known their location and points of connection.

 

[archieclement]

Thanks, Archie. I was unaware that the incursion was reported "up the line." Somebody sure screwed up, didn't he?

Aug 20 Capt Pike in command of about 100 cavalry at Aubry, at 530 Pm receiving word Q was on the Grand River near the state line he dispatched riders to other military posts and Ewings HQ in KC, then at 7 PM a local farmer arrived with word Q had crossed over into KS, Capt Pike then dispatched additional riders to garrisons at Coldwater Grove KS and Little Santa Fe Mo.

The interesting aspect is Capt Pike was a Lawrence resident, but choose to not dispatch a rider to there. Capt Pikes 100 men were Co K, 9th KS Cav , and Co D 11th KS Cav

Pike claims he doesn't pursue then as he only has 21 men available, however he is reinforced by 80 men at 11 PM from Little Santa Fe....and they say Pike had the full 100 of his command.... They set off in "pursuit" with 180 men shortly after, but Q has a 5 hr head start by then.

Also when Coleman received word from Pike, he sent a rider to Olathe with orders to relay the Msg further west.

 

[Booner]

When Gen. Ewing took over his command of the border, he set up a system where by each little town had a squadron or company of calvary to come to each other's aid from different directions if a town was attacked by guerrillias- thereby surrounding them. So the garrison that saw the guerrillias wouldn't have been big enough to attack them by themselves. They did inform the headquarters in Kansas City, but it was late at night and........ Why they didn't shadow the guerrillias.....

And Sen. Lane is partly responsible for the lack of defense of Lawrence. Normally, it was the governor of a state who authorized the raising and appointment of the unit and its officers. In Kansas, Sen. Lane was charged with this responsibility, and received the kick backs ( money and political pull) from suppliers and prospective officers. When the governor of Kansas requested more troops for protection, under the govenors control, Lane refussed to raise them as he wouldn't gain anything. It was perhaps one reason why, after the raid, he was so adamant in his procution of the raiders, so as to divert attention from his failure to increase the states protection.

And I do think Price was an "conditional unionist" prior to the St. Louis massacre, where the events there of changed his thinking.

And there was a Lawrence woman who was accused of providing pre-raid information to the guerrillias, but for some reason, I can't find the book I'm looking for.

 

[archieclement]

Aug 20 Capt Pike in command of about 100 cavalry at Aubry, at 530 Pm receiving word Q was on the Grand River near the state line he dispatched riders to other military posts and Ewings HQ in KC, then at 7 PM a local farmer arrived with word Q had crossed over into KS, Capt Pike then dispatched additional riders to garrisons at Coldwater Grove KS and Little Santa Fe Mo.

The interesting aspect is Capt Pike was a Lawrence resident, but choose to not dispatch a rider to there. Capt Pikes 100 men were Co K, 9th KS Cav , and Co D 11th KS Cav

Pike claims he doesn't pursue then as he only has 21 men available, however he is reinforced by 80 men at 11 PM from Little Santa Fe....and they say Pike had the full 100 of his command.... The set off in "pursuit" with 180 men shortly after, but Q has a 5 hr head start by then.

Also hate to burst someone's bubble who claims there were no KS troops left in Missouri before the Lawrence raid.....

But when Capt Pike is reinforced with 80 men from the garrison at Little Santa Fe MO, its Capt Coleman with......Co D 9th KS Cav......

 

[Booner]

Also hate to burst someone's bubble who claims there were no KS troops left in Missouri before the Lawrence raid.....

But when Capt Pike is reinforced with 80 men from the garrison at Little Santa Fe MO, its Capt Coleman with......Co D 9th KS Cav......

Someone on this forum has made the claim, several times, that Gen Haleck had all Kansas troops removed from MO, and that they didn't return until Prices '64 raid.

On two if not three occasions I have supplied this person with proof-actually naming the KS troops and their MO location, but sadly, my posts were lost, misplaced, not read, or, sadly, not believed.

Haleck did remove the 7th(?) Ks from MO. and had them reassigned to points east due to all the mischief they were causing in MO.

 

[archieclement]

Also should note when rider arrived with word at Ewings Headquarters, he wasn't there...… He had taken a "French leave" to visit his wife in Fort Leavenworth without permission from Maj Gen Schofield....While at Fort Leavenworth he could only be contacted by telegraph, however the fort's operator was also absent from duty.....So a Major Plumb was left to try to deal with it.

Apparently "French leave" is a polite term for AWOL when don't want to prosecute someone for being AWOL

 

[Patrick H]

When Gen. Ewing took over his command of the border, he set up a system where by each little town had a squadron or company of calvary to come to each other's aid from different directions if a town was attacked by guerrillias- thereby surrounding them. So the garrison that saw the guerrillias wouldn't have been big enough to attack them by themselves. They did inform the headquarters in Kansas City, but it was late at night and........ Why they didn't shadow the guerrillias.....

And Sen. Lane is partly responsible for the lack of defense of Lawrence. Normally, it was the governor of a state who authorized the raising and appointment of the unit and its officers. In Kansas, Sen. Lane was charged with this responsibility, and received the kick backs ( money and political pull) from suppliers and prospective officers. When the governor of Kansas requested more troops for protection, under the govenors control, Lane refussed to raise them as he wouldn't gain anything. It was perhaps one reason why, after the raid, he was so adamant in his procution of the raiders, so as to divert attention from his failure to increase the states protection.

And I do think Price was an "conditional unionist" prior to the St. Louis massacre, where the events there of changed his thinking.

And there was a Lawrence woman who was accused of providing pre-raid information to the guerrillias, but for some reason, I can't find the book I'm looking for.

I believe you must be thinking of the "map woman", mentioned previously by our friend, Waterloo50. See his interesting post number 62. Now, I had never heard of this woman previously, but I have no trouble believing that it might have happened just as reported. We know for certain that Lawrence was scouted by Fletch Taylor and by John Noland prior to the raid. I can easily believe that Q. had this crafty woman among his spy network. On the other hand, the good Reverend might have been an early conspiracy theorist, and the map lady might never have existed.

....or.....

The map might have been the work of either Fletch Taylor or John Noland. They seem to have escaped the reverend's radar!

When you find that book you're searching for, I want you to share it with me!

 

[leftyhunter]

For those who need reassuring: no, I do not think that it is okay to kill kids. At the same time, it is worth reminding that none of these events can be separated from what came before and after them. Context. To single out the Lawrence Massacre as an isolated/unprovoked event unto itself is to misrepresent the chain of events, and history, itself.

The whole context is that pro slavery Missourians attacked abolitionist settlers in Kansas. Unfortunately for the Border Ruffians not all the emigrants starting with John Brown were weaklings. The Kansans beat back the Border Ruffians and then took revenge. In return the Confederate guerrillas continued the revenge cycle of which the Lawrence Massacre was one of the highlights.
So no the Lawrence Massacre did not take place in a vacuum.
Leftyhunter

 

[Patrick H]

The whole context is that pro slavery Missourians attacked abolitionist settlers in Kansas. Unfortunately for the Border Ruffians not all the emigrants starting with John Brown were weaklings. The Kansans beat back the Border Ruffians and then took revenge. In return the Confederate guerrillas continued the revenge cycle of which the Lawrence Massacre was one of the highlights.
So no the Lawrence Massacre did not take place in a vacuum.
Leftyhunter

Uh...no. That is some of the context, and it's the part you subscribe to. But it's not the whole context. Not by a long shot.

 

[Patrick H]

Hey, Lefty, I actually think this border ruffian concept would be a great thread. Just go ahead and launch it and let's all participate in it. Seriously, you have some valid points here with regard to the ruffians. I encourage you to launch the thread so it can be explored. It'll be new information to a lot of people out here. It was controversial then and it is now, too, so we will have to be careful to keep our emotions in check, but it's a great concept for a thread. Go ahead and post it.

But let's not argue it out on this particular thread.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Hey, Lefty, I actually think this border ruffian concept would be a great thread. Just go ahead and launch it and let's all participate in it.

I hope he really makes it a good one. Can't wait to read how the valiant Kansans handled those Missouri ruffians all by themselves.

 

[Patrick H]

I hope he really makes it a good one. Can't wait to read how the valiant Kansans handled those Missouri ruffians all by themselves.

Well, I know what you mean, but I really wasn't trying to bait him. I think it would be a great thread if we can all keep our emotions in check. I thought and still think it would be neat if Lefty would launch a thoughtful thread and get all this off his chest. You know, General Shelby expressed regrets to Connelley about having "gone to Kansas". I don't think he referred to himself as a border ruffian, but there's a genuine hero in the minds of so many people, yet he expressed regrets about his younger days. I think Lefty would like that. This could be a fascinating thread, as long as it doesn't degenerate.

 

[archieclement]

The whole context is that pro slavery Missourians attacked abolitionist settlers in Kansas. Unfortunately for the Border Ruffians not all the emigrants starting with John Brown were weaklings. The Kansans beat back the Border Ruffians and then took revenge. In return the Confederate guerrillas continued the revenge cycle of which the Lawrence Massacre was one of the highlights.
So no the Lawrence Massacre did not take place in a vacuum.
Leftyhunter

Actually if you want to view the whole context, the first murder in KS to start Bleeding KS was a proslavery man killed by a freestater, theres several sources to support that Etchisons book is a good one. If you really want to go back to the beginning there lefty, so to say the context is otherwise, is a bit disingenuous , however hardly surprising at this point

 

[Patrick H]

Actually if you want to view the whole context, the first murder in KS to start Bleeding KS was a proslavery man killed by a freestater, theres several sources to support that Etchisons book is a good one. If you really want to go back to the beginning there lefty, so to say the context is otherwise, is a bit disingenuous , however hardly surprising at this point

Archie, if the thread hasn't been launched by about 9 AM our time tomorrow, please go ahead and launch it. Otherwise, I might have to launch it. And I don't know all that much about the border ruffians!

 

[archieclement]

Archie, if the thread hasn't been launched by about 9 AM our time tomorrow, please go ahead and launch it. Otherwise, I might have to launch it. And I don't know all that much about the border ruffians!

Me either, however I know Missourians weren't the ones hacking people to death in the middle of the night with swords and stealing their horses, that was them other fellas from back east, they apparently weren't as civilized.

But Nicole Etchison provides a letter one of them Kansas people wrote back east complaining all the better class of settlers were staying in Missouri.....I've always liked that letter

Imagine there's a lot of truth to it.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Archie, if the thread hasn't been launched by about 9 AM our time tomorrow, please go ahead and launch it. Otherwise, I might have to launch it. And I don't know all that much about the border ruffians!

Pretty sure the 'border ruffian' myth was birthed by the Eastern press to describe early struggles during the 1850s between pro and anti slavery factions vying for political dominance in the territory. Early settlers of eastern Kansas territory had migrated primarily from New England States and correspondingly held abolitionist views, while a much smaller migration arrived from neighboring Southern slave State Missouri. Conflict ignited quickly between the groups of dissimilar settlers and animosity toward recent Missouri migrants increased as other Missourians posing as settlers arrived solely to vote in Territory elections. Reportedly, many more votes were cast in these elections that the number of eligible voters residing in the territory. Violent acts were committed on both sides, including several infamous incidents in present day Miami Co. Eventually, the numbers of New England settlers grew in significant numbers and acts of violence against Missouri migrants increased to the point remaining in Kansas was untenable and many fled. This did not end the violence and bands of the new Kansans began crossing the border to attack and plunder Missouri farms and small towns. The State of Missouri was forced to call up the State Militia to chase jayhawking raiders back across the border and attempt to serve as a deterrent against further cross border violence. There was no corresponding effort on the part of Kansas to control their border ruffian element. By the time of beginning of the WBTS cross border raids had been going on for ten years.

Am watching the Cardinal game, while I typed this up. Why is Atlanta's stadium full of Cardinal fans?

 

[archieclement]

Pretty sure the 'border ruffian' myth was birthed by the Eastern press to describe early struggles during the 1850s between pro and anti slavery factions vying for political dominance in the territory. Early settlers of eastern Kansas territory had migrated primarily from New England States and correspondingly held abolitionist views, while a much smaller migration arrived from neighboring Southern slave State Missouri. Conflict ignited quickly between the groups of dissimilar settlers and animosity toward recent Missouri migrants increased as other Missourians posing as settlers arrived solely to vote in Territory elections. Reportedly, many more votes were cast in these elections that the number of eligible voters residing in the territory. Violent acts were committed on both sides, including several infamous incidents in present day Miami Co. Eventually, the numbers of New England settlers grew in significant numbers and acts of violence against Missouri migrants increased to the point remaining in Kansas was untenable and many fled. This did not end the violence and bands of the new Kansans began crossing the border to attack and plunder Missouri farms and small towns. The State of Missouri was forced to call up the State Militia to chase jayhawking raiders back across the border and attempt to serve as a deterrent against further cross border violence. There was no corresponding effort on the part of Kansas to control their border ruffian element. By the time of beginning of the WBTS cross border raids had been going on for ten years.

Am watching the Cardinal game, while I typed this up. Why is Atlanta's stadium full of Cardinal fans?

One will notice similarities between the Mormons and Emigrant Aid Society if one studies both of this period, both would recruit the dregs of society with promises of free passage, free land, and new lives if they pledged devotion to them, the only way both could make good on such promises was by robbing their neighbors, and both basically raised armies from the dregs to do so. And as to eliminate qualms about their conduct, both claimed they had some higher moral ground like a crusade to excuse whatever they did, which was usually the lowest of the low ground like robbery and murder...……..

 

[Lusty Murfax]

One will notice similarities between the Mormons and Emigrant Aid Society if one studies both, both would recruit the dregs of society with promises of free passage, free land, and new lives if pledged devotion to them, the only way both could make good on such promises was by robbing their neighbors, and both basically raised armies from the dregs to do so.

Should have mentioned them, the EAS of NE. Those people came out west with hearts full of bad intentions.