Quantrill's Raid

[Booner]

Larkin Scaggs---
He was a Babtist Preacher-no doubt a Southern Babtist. He wasn't a guerrila until a week before the raid when his farm was burned out by jayhawkers.; He was ruined. Some how he heard about the raid and joined them. No doubt that revenge was on his mind.

He got extreamly drunk while in Lawrence and didn't realise that the raiders had left and was overcome by the townspeople.

 

[Waterloo50]

Thanks for some good insights. I had forgotten all about McCorckle talking about Q's order that women and children should not be harmed. Yes, it's true that any of these guys had an incentive to put things in the best possible light, but I generally don't have any trouble believing them.

I meant to ask earlier: You referred to a map theory. I'm totally unfamiliar with it, but I'd sure like to read about it here. Please fill us in!

My comment was really about something the Reverend Fisher said in his memoirs.
Spies were in town all night ... indeed it is placed beyond peradventure that the mother of a certain Banker of Lawrence, who secured all his valuables the night before the raid, spent weeks with his family in Lawrence, and made a map of the town giving the names, residences and location of those who were to be killed and their homes burned, marking them thus -- "Kill and Burn," or "Burn," as if the property belonged to a sympathizer only "Kill." This map was taken by this heinous woman to Kansas City, and Quantrall and his lieutenants entertained day and night m the greatest possible seclusion in her parlor, where they had the maps explained preparatory to the sacking of Lawrence.

I was asking if there was any truth in it, Fisher just strikes me as a very nasty piece of work.

 

[archieclement]

It's not histrionics to state that Confederate guerrillas did kill unarmed boys at Lawrence. For all practical purposes killing 150 men and boy's is the same thing as shoot on sight. We even have Quantrill's quote " kill and you make n omistake" is the same as shoot on sight.
If you think Quantrill was justified in killing boys just say so.
Leftyhunter

Really? The population of Lawrence in 1860 was 1650, by 1870 8000.....150 people wouldn't equate to anything like shoot on sight....not to mention just 2 weeks before the raid a Lawrence paper had bragged Lawrence had 500 soldiers/militia wishing he would come.....they got their wish, tho not sure if it went exactly as they had dreamt of it

 

[leftyhunter]

Tosoldierse

Really? The population of Lawrence in 1860 was 1650, by 1870 8000.....150 people wouldn't equate to anything like shoot on sight....not to mention just 2 weeks before the raid a Lawrence paper had bragged Lawrence had 500 soldiers/militia wishing he would come.....they got their wish, tho not sure if it went exactly as they had dreamt of it

Many of the residents were women and young children. The men were in hiding. Is your argument that killing 150 men and boys is not killing every male on sight because killing 150 males is an acceptably low amount?
Leftyhunter

 

[Waterloo50]

Really? The population of Lawrence in 1860 was 1650, by 1870 8000.....150 people wouldn't equate to anything like shoot on sight....not to mention just 2 weeks before the raid a Lawrence paper had bragged Lawrence had 500 soldiers/militia wishing he would come.....they got their wish

Were the people of Lawrence kept in the dark about the very real risk of Quantrill paying them a visit, I get the impression that the risk was real but nobody made any effort to prepare for such an event. It seems strange that the Lawrence paper was bragging that they wished he would come, seems like a massive case of underestimating Qs tenacity.

 

[archieclement]

Tosoldierse

Many of the residents were women and young children. The men were in hiding. Is your argument that killing 150 men and boys is not killing every male on sight because killing 150 males is an acceptably low amount?
Leftyhunter

No because I don't need to make any claim, when there was male survivors who clearly said they were protected after surrendering, that prisoners were gave protection clearly says your claim is hogwash. You seem to only read selective accounts and disregard what clearly contradicts your "personal little visions", but that some were gave protection clearly isn't a general shoot on sight policy......

 

[leftyhunter]

No because I don't need to make any claim, when there was male survivors who clearly said they were protected after surrendering, that prisoners were gave protection clearly says your claim is hogwash,,,,,,,

So because some of the guerrillas did not
kill all male residents on sight no harm no fowel and no massacre took place just harmless fun?
Quantrill did tell his men " kill and there will not be any mistakes".
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

To all. after the Lawrence Massacre should the Union authorities simply apologized for any harm done by Union troops and had a bbq for those who partcipated in the Lawrence Massacre. Should the Union authorities stated " Lawrence got what it deserved thank you fir killing 150 men and boys they got what was coming go them?
Leftyhunter

 

[archieclement]

So because some of the guerrillas did not
kill all male residents on sight no harm no fowel and no massacre took place just harmless fun?
Quantrill did tell his men " kill and there will not be any mistakes".
Leftyhunter

Is there some reason your being absurd? No one has said some people weren't killed, no one has said excesses didn't happen...….however that isn't a general shoot on sight policy or order that someone keeps spouting off despite no evidence of any such order, and evidence and accounts from survivors who clearly indicate that wasn't what occurred.

Frankly there is no verifiable evidence of what was said at all, as generally to be accepted as fact there has to be more then one account to collaborate the evidence. There were no diaries of the raiders, no raiders wrote accounts of what was said at the time, what little accounts we do have were in fact wrote years later postwar from memory.

If have original sources please provide them

You do no one justice, then or now, with your ludicrous off the wall claims such as "harmless fun" when clearly no one then or now, other then you makes such ludicrous claims.

But if you want me to note you made a claim that Lawrence was "harmless fun" noted, and also noted your the only one here who has claimed anything that absurd, But in reality it was neither "shoot on sight" or "harmless fun" its kinda one extreme or the other with you...…..​

 

[Patrick H]

My comment was really about something the Reverend Fisher said in his memoirs.
Spies were in town all night ... indeed it is placed beyond peradventure that the mother of a certain Banker of Lawrence, who secured all his valuables the night before the raid, spent weeks with his family in Lawrence, and made a map of the town giving the names, residences and location of those who were to be killed and their homes burned, marking them thus -- "Kill and Burn," or "Burn," as if the property belonged to a sympathizer only "Kill." This map was taken by this heinous woman to Kansas City, and Quantrall and his lieutenants entertained day and night m the greatest possible seclusion in her parlor, where they had the maps explained preparatory to the sacking of Lawrence.

I was asking if there was any truth in it, Fisher just strikes me as a very nasty piece of work.

WOW! That is fascinating. Thank you for detailing it for us. I have no idea if it's true, but we've got to try to find more on it. It might be one of those things like the jail collapse that killed the girls--so many theories and explanations of the causes and we will never know the truth.

 

[Bee]

For those who need reassuring: no, I do not think that it is okay to kill kids. At the same time, it is worth reminding that none of these events can be separated from what came before and after them. Context. To single out the Lawrence Massacre as an isolated/unprovoked event unto itself is to misrepresent the chain of events, and history, itself.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

I know. I have a friend (an absolutely rabid Tiger fan) who refers to Quantrill's raid as "Missouri's most decisive road victory over Kansas." YIKES! That's kind of extreme!

Mizzou basketball coach Norm Stewart used to walk into the Kansas field house wearing a hard hat...just to mess with them.

A lot of our readers probably don't know about the extent of this rivalry. Until Missouri joined the SEC conference, MU / KU was the second oldest rivalry in the history of college football.

Up into the 70s you'd see a few Missouri fans waved the Stars and Bars flags at the football games and the band included Dixie in it's play list. I don't believe that'd go over well in the current campus environment. They don't know it, but Rollins Ave., the main drag on campus was named in honor of the largest slave owner in Missouri.

 

[Booner]

Rollins, a union man. He was on the stagecoach that Anderson's men stopped and robbed just outside of Centralia; he was on his way to a political meeting. Perhaps his life was spared because they didn't discover who he was as a train was approaching the village. Anderson's men hurriedly finished robbing them then left to see what was on the train.

 

[archieclement]

Were the people of Lawrence kept in the dark about the very real risk of Quantrill paying them a visit, I get the impression that the risk was real but nobody made any effort to prepare for such an event. It seems strange that the Lawrence paper was bragging that they wished he would come, seems like a massive case of underestimating Qs tenacity.

No I get the impression their was plenty of guilty conscious who knew the risk of payback was very real. The newspaper account boasting Lawrence had 500 soldiers/militia wishing they would come, was written after a false alarm scare two weeks previous. The thing was in my mind, the war had gone two years now, they had constant rumors of impending attacks that never happened, they had built some fortifications and apparently did have a sizable militia.

But it's like the crying wolf story, every false alarm causes people to get more lax and take it less seriously. The most inexcusable aspect of the unpreparedness was the Union garrison at Aubry I believe, saw the guerrillas crossing into Kansas, but it seems no troops were sent to find or shadow them then, and no warning was relayed to Lawrence.

But that a rather large band was on the move in Kansas, was known to Union authorities, I've never really heard a reasonable explanation why forces weren't sent to hunt them or warnings issued then

Perhaps like lefty the Union authorities thought they were just coming over for "harmless fun", maybe they thought it was a 300 man fishing vacation.........but their reaction was basicly doodly squat

 

[Patrick H]

Up into the 70s you'd see a few Missouri fans waved the Stars and Bars flags at the football games and the band included Dixie in it's play list. I don't believe that'd go over well in the current campus environment. They don't know it, but Rollins Ave., the main drag on campus was named in honor of the largest slave owner in Missouri.

Yes, indeed. One of those pesky constitutional unionists who stuck with the union because it guaranteed his right to own his slaves...for a while, anyway. @Booner has reminded us of what almost happened to him in Centralia. The many varieties of unionist would be another interesting thread topic some time.

 

[Patrick H]

For those who need reassuring: no, I do not think that it is okay to kill kids. At the same time, it is worth reminding that none of these events can be separated from what came before and after them. Context. To single out the Lawrence Massacre as an isolated/unprovoked event unto itself is to misrepresent the chain of events, and history, itself.

Once again you are a model of reason and common sense, Bee. Thank you! Yes, terrible things happened in many, many places, but we can't forget that they are interrelated.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Yes, indeed. One of those pesky constitutional unionists who stuck with the union because it guaranteed his right to own his slaves...for a while, anyway. @Booner has reminded us of what almost happened to him in Centralia. The many varieties of unionist would be another interesting thread topic some time.

Was not former Gov. and future MSG and CSA Gen. Sterling Price the leader of the Conditional Unionists in Missouri at least right up until the time of The Planter House meeting with Lyon and Blair?

 

[Patrick H]

But it's like the crying wolf story, every false alarm causes people to get more lax and take it less seriously. The most inexcusable aspect of the unpreparedness was the Union garrison at Aubry I believe, saw the guerrillas crossing into Kansas, but it seems no troops were sent to find or shadow them then, and no warning was relayed to Lawrence.

Archie is absolutely correct. Too many false alarms led to unpreparedness. Now I can't necessarily blame that small border garrison for not engaging a big armed cavalry force (Q's combined bands headed into Kansas), but their failure to raise the alarm was inexcusable.

 

[Patrick H]

Was not former Gov. and future MSG and CSA Gen. Sterling Price the leader of the Conditional Unionists in Missouri at least right up until the time of The Planter House meeting with Lyon and Blair?

Now there's an excellent question, and it's one I am clueless to try to answer. But lets explore it in a different thread. Lusty, why don't you launch the thread, and we'll see where it takes everyone?!

 

[archieclement]

Archie is absolutely correct. Too many false alarms led to unpreparedness. Now I can't necessarily blame that small border garrison for not engaging a big armed cavalry force (Q' s combined bands headed into Kansas), but their failure to raise the alarm was inexcusable.

I believe they did report it up the chain, nothing happened higher up......whether that garrison was considered unreliable or easily "spooked" don't know, maybe like lefty they thought they were just coming over for some harmless fun.....in hindsight seems pretty big failure to use available intelligence