Puzzling Artifact

[stonestacker]

Hello everyone, thanks for accepting me to your group. I'm an Air Force Veteran, and have to admit I've previously been most interested in WWII, as my Father had 7 Bronze Stars from campaigns in Africa, Sicily, Normandy, France, Ardennes, Rhineland, and Central Europe, But recently I have questions about an object I've attached photos of that hopefully members of this group will have comments on. It was used as a doorstop in a recently demolished brick home that was built in 1818, that once served as a stagecoach stop on the "National Road" Route 40 here in Western Pennsylvania. It was described as a mortar shell, but after viewing hundreds of photos, I can't find any similar items.
The Artifact, I'm gonna call it that for lack of knowledge, is 3" tall with a 3" diameter, and weighs over 4 pounds. It has a thin copper casing with an unusual crimp pattern around bottom fastening it to a thick iron plug that is slightly concave. Something metal must be inside as a magnet sticks to copper case. Give close attention to the circled area on top where a small rectangular object is seen. After some prior discussion, we came to a possible conclusion that this might be some type of triggering mechanism.
The thin copper casing seems to make it unique as far as cannon or mortar shells go, and even though it seems to be an extremely old relic, maybe it's not as old as I think, and I'm not even connecting it to the correct era. It's an extremely interesting artifact, and I'm hoping someone here will recognize it and be able to provide some details about it and possibly the artillery used to launch it. And if someone recognizes it as something that has nothing to do with military ordinance, or maybe it is but from a different conflict, that's okay too. I'm only interested in knowing it's true purpose. Hope my post captures some interest, and that answers will be revealed. Thank you in advance for any comments provided.
Barry

 

[UCVRelics]

Interesting piece. Its not artillery. I leaning that its the male end of a press that made some sort of copper cup, bowl etc. Can you peek under there and see if the design on the outer copper is on the interior piece?

 

[stonestacker]

Interesting piece. Its not artillery. I leaning that its the male end of a press that made some sort of copper cup, bowl etc. Can you peek under there and see if the design on the outer copper is on the interior piece?

I understand what you're suggesting, and was able to peel back the thin copper casing far enough to see under. I looked with magnifying glass and took the best photos I could get, but see no positive or negative die markings on heavy iron plug in base of artifact. I'm certain I can see up in further than weird crimp marks on outer case extend. After looking at photos, I guess I could have cleaned up a little better before taking pics, but pretty sure outer markings were not created from any inner plug tooling. And copper case would be to soft to create impression as a die for transfer to something else over it. Also thinking if they were going to press a cup from this device, why would they put a round bottom on it?
First pic shows view under casing. Second at same spot showing outer crimp marks.
Thank you for the suggestion, but don't believe that is the answer.

 

[UCVRelics]

The design may have been on the female side as it is pressed.

 

[stonestacker]

The design may have been on the female side as it is pressed.

I agree that marks were created by female crimping device from outside, but that means thin copper shell that is still in place is the "cup?" itself. Is that what you're suggesting? I'm not real convinced. What about rectangular part protruding from what would be the bottom. It all seems to be something more than that. Appreciate your interest and suggestions though. Keep on pondering and let me know if you come up with others. Thank you.

 

[RobertP]

Welcome to the forum! Your father certainly had an impressive military record, 7 Bronze Stars. Mine earned one in the Pacific Theater and I was always proud of that.

Is the dome of the piece hollow? How far does the iron plug intrude into the structure? What if it was an old and relatively primitive copper custard mold that some later repurposed as a door stop by fitting the plug in it.

 

[stonestacker]

Welcome to the forum! Your father certainly had an impressive military record, 7 Bronze Stars. Mine earned one in the Pacific Theater and I was always proud of that.

Is the dome of the piece hollow? How far does the iron plug intrude into the structure? What if it was an old and relatively primitive copper custard mold that some later repurposed as a door stop by fitting the plug in it.

Good Morning Robert. Thank you for the recognition to my Father's Service. He enlisted in October 1941, two months before Pearl Harbor. As a member of the 2nd Armored Division, "Hell on Wheels", they battled Rommel all the way across Northern Africa, then went to Siciliy, before finally ending up in England to cross into France on D-Day plus 2. And it seems they fought in every battle between there and Berlin, where they then had to wait for the Russians to arrive so they could enter the city from both the West and East. He's passed now, but still my hero. I know it's off topic with this forum, but I'm sharing his picture cause I'm just so **** Proud of Him.
But like your Father, his Brother fought in the Pacific, and from what I've heard of His experience, it's seems amazing that anyone returned home from that Theater of World War II. Glad he made it back so we can talk today. I Salute his Service, and how he contributed to Keep America Safe.

Okay back to my Artifact. The woman I got it from said it had always been described as a "Mortar Shell" since she was a young girl in the 1960s. She said it appeared very old even then. And while it indeed was used as a doorstop, I don't have any reason to believe it had been altered in any way from initial manufacture. Just looks too original in every aspect. I suspect the bottom iron plug only extends into the copper case about 3/4" to the ring just above weird crimping. Definitely not hollow as a magnet sticks to anywhere on object. And a sizeable crack exists on one side that I attached photo of. It shows that under copper covering is a thin light colored layer of something I can't identify. Almost looks like cloth, but is now very rigid. Beneath that is this dark substance. Also very hard as I tried scratching at it with a tweezer. Didn't try with excessive force as the whole thing makes me kind of nervous.
If no one believes it to be of artillery origin, I would still like to find out it's original purpose. But the small rectangular object protruding from top end that we thought could be what remains of a triggering mechanism makes me continue to think it might be a mortar shell or some type of ordinance. Maybe I'm just looking too far back in history for identification as Civil War object. I'd bet devices of this type from WWI or WWII, would appear just as old.
Thank you Sir for your interest, and hope you continue to think about or talk to your friends to discover the true identification of this artifact. Be sure to post if you have additional suggestions. Have a great day.

 

[DixieRifles]

Hello everyone, thanks for accepting me to your group. I'm an Air Force Veteran, and have to admit I've previously been most interested in WWII, as my Father had 7 Bronze Stars from campaigns in Africa, Sicily, Normandy, France, Ardennes, Rhineland, and Central Europe

Welcome from another Air Force veteran

Did your Father receive 7 Bronze Star Medals or "Bronze Star Devices" to the campaign medal? Sometimes this is misinterpreted when reading the Discharge Form.

 

[stonestacker]

Welcome to the forum! Your father certainly had an impressive military record, 7 Bronze Stars. Mine earned one in the Pacific Theater and I was always proud of that.

Is the dome of the piece hollow? How far does the iron plug intrude into the structure? What if it was an old and relatively primitive copper custard mold that some later repurposed as a door stop by fitting the plug in it.

After further magnified inspection of the photo showing crack in side of artifact, I now suspect that what I was was calling a short iron plug at base, possibly extends throughout interior of object. Not certain, but that's how it appears. This may change my opinion of it being an artillery device. Hmmm.

 

[UCVRelics]

After further magnified inspection of the photo showing crack in side of artifact, I now suspect that what I was was calling a short iron plug at base, possibly extends throughout interior of object. Not certain, but that's how it appears. This may change my opinion of it being an artillery device. Hmmm.

If it was a mortar shell it would have a fuse.

 

[stonestacker]

Welcome from another Air Force veteran

Did your Father receive 7 Bronze Star Medals or "Bronze Star Devices" to the campaign medal? Sometimes this is misinterpreted when reading the Discharge Form.

Good day to another Air Force Veteran. Thank you for your Service Sir. Guess I'm no expert, you might be right. How do you interpret the partial attach of his DD214.

 

[stonestacker]

If it was a mortar shell it would have a fuse.

Okay, thank you for the additional info.

 

[RobertP]

Good Morning Robert. Thank you for the recognition to my Father's Service. He enlisted in October 1941, two months before Pearl Harbor. As a member of the 2nd Armored Division, "Hell on Wheels", they battled Rommel all the way across Northern Africa, then went to Siciliy, before finally ending up in England to cross into France on D-Day plus 2. And it seems they fought in every battle between there and Berlin, where they then had to wait for the Russians to arrive so they could enter the city from both the West and East. He's passed now, but still my hero. I know it's off topic with this forum, but I'm sharing his picture cause I'm just so **** Proud of Him.
But like your Father, his Brother fought in the Pacific, and from what I've heard of His experience, it's seems amazing that anyone returned home from that Theater of World War II. Glad he made it back so we can talk today. I Salute his Service, and how he contributed to Keep America Safe.

Okay back to my Artifact. The woman I got it from said it had always been described as a "Mortar Shell" since she was a young girl in the 1960s. She said it appeared very old even then. And while it indeed was used as a doorstop, I don't have any reason to believe it had been altered in any way from initial manufacture. Just looks too original in every aspect. I suspect the bottom iron plug only extends into the copper case about 3/4" to the ring just above weird crimping. Definitely not hollow as a magnet sticks to anywhere on object. And a sizeable crack exists on one side that I attached photo of. It shows that under copper covering is a thin light colored layer of something I can't identify. Almost looks like cloth, but is now very rigid. Beneath that is this dark substance. Also very hard as I tried scratching at it with a tweezer. Didn't try with excessive force as the whole thing makes me kind of nervous.
If no one believes it to be of artillery origin, I would still like to find out it's original purpose. But the small rectangular object protruding from top end that we thought could be what remains of a triggering mechanism makes me continue to think it might be a mortar shell or some type of ordinance. Maybe I'm just looking too far back in history for identification as Civil War object. I'd bet devices of this type from WWI or WWII, would appear just as old.
Thank you Sir for your interest, and hope you continue to think about or talk to your friends to discover the true identification of this artifact. Be sure to post if you have additional suggestions. Have a great day.

View attachment 454337

View attachment 454355

Well that rules out my theory. I'd be a little careful about digging into that thing too!
Great picture of your Dad. Thanks for sharing.

 

[DixieRifles]

How do you interpret the partial attach of his DD214.

His campaign medal was the European - African - Middle Eastern Campaign Medal. That was issued for service anywhere in Europe, North Africa and Italy. He received 7 Bronze Star Devices---one for each campaign---which are named on the in Block 32 of the form. If he was in a unit assigned to that area of the campaign and served 1 day, then he got credit for that campaign. The campaigns were identified by specific area and range of dates. So there was one campaign for Sicily and I think 4 ground campaigns for mainland Italy.
Some of the infantry divisions that fought in N. Africa and Sicily, were transferred back to England to prepare for the Normandy invasion. The 1st Infantry Division and the 9th Infantry Division were two that comes to mind. Then there were a lot of small units such as anti-aircraft or tank battalions which also saw those campaigns you listed.

An example of an E-A-ME Campaign Medal with 4 Bronze Star devices for 4 campaigns.

Also in Block 32 "Battles and Campaigns", it mentions General Orders issued by the War Department in 1945 that authorized the latest medals: GO 33 WD 45 and GO 40 WD 45. I think the first one authorized the World War II Victory Medal for service in US Armed Forces between 1941-1946.

 

[stonestacker]

His campaign medal was the European - African - Middle Eastern Campaign Medal. That was issued for service anywhere in Europe, North Africa and Italy. He received 7 Bronze Star Devices---one for each campaign---which are named on the in Block 32 of the form. If he was in a unit assigned to that area of the campaign and served 1 day, then he got credit for that campaign. The campaigns were identified by specific area and range of dates. So there was one campaign for Sicily and I think 4 ground campaigns for mainland Italy.
Some of the infantry divisions that fought in N. Africa and Sicily, were transferred back to England to prepare for the Normandy invasion. The 1st Infantry Division and the 9th Infantry Division were two that comes to mind. Then there were a lot of small units such as anti-aircraft or tank battalions which also saw those campaigns you listed.

An example of an E-A-ME Campaign Medal with 4 Bronze Star devices for 4 campaigns.
View attachment 454388

Also in Block 32 "Battles and Campaigns", it mentions General Orders issued by the War Department in 1945 that authorized the latest medals: GO 33 WD 45 and GO 40 WD 45. I think the first one authorized the World War II Victory Medal for service in US Armed Forces between 1941-1946.

Hello Steve. Got your reply and now understand about 7 Bronze Star Devices on the one service medal. After rereading his discharge papers, I can easily see how I got confused. Still means about the same to me, but appreciate you taking the time to clarify. No intent to embellish his service.

 

[stonestacker]

Well that rules out my theory. I'd be a little careful about digging into that thing too!
Great picture of your Dad. Thanks for sharing.

Maybe it as you say ruled out your theory, but appreciate you you taking the time to offer it. Just looking for answers no matter where it leads. Some have expressed they don't think it's an artillery device, which seems they may possibly be right. But based on my first impression of the artifact, as I mentioned earlier, just handling it still kinda makes me nervous. If you have any further suggestions, please let me know.

 

[Package4]

Good day to another Air Force Veteran. Thank you for your Service Sir. Guess I'm no expert, you might be right. How do you interpret the partial attach of his DD214.

View attachment 454364

 

[Elliot Crumblemuffin]

It seems to have a design around the copper wrapping that looks like Capital "T's." There is probably some mundane explanation for it...maybe it really IS a door stop . I'll be watching this thread to see if anyone else has any good ideas!

I love the picture of your dad! He looks like a "heart-breakin,' life-takin,'" brave soldier

 

[stonestacker]

It seems to have a design around the copper wrapping that looks like Capital "T's." There is probably some mundane explanation for it...maybe it really IS a door stop . I'll be watching this thread to see if anyone else has any good ideas!

I love the picture of your dad! He looks like a "heart-breakin,' life-takin,'" brave soldier

View attachment 454400

Hello Elliott. My artifact may very well be just a mere doorstop. But it somehow seems so much more, so I'm gonna keep searching.
And thanks for the comment about my Father. Makes me feel good to share his story.
Good Evening Sir.

 

[Elliot Crumblemuffin]

Hello Elliott. My artifact may very well be just a mere doorstop. But it somehow seems so much more, so I'm gonna keep searching.
And thanks for the comment about my Father. Makes me feel good to share his story.
Good Evening Sir.

Good afternoon! I know what you mean about the artifact, and I hope you get it figured out and let us know . Good luck, Sir!