Possible stupid question

Merlin1066

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Jun 5, 2022
Location
New Jersey
Ok, I'll be totally honest, I know very little about this stuff but I'm trying to learn so please take it easy on me LOL. I just watched a video viewed from Devils Den looking up at Little Round Top. I understand the confederate army were firing from DD to LRT. I dont know the distance between the 2 locations. My question is, how accurate were those shots coming from DD to LRT or any location really. They only had iron sites for the most part correct? Were the soldiers just shooting in the general direction of the enemy? Thanks in advance for the replies!
 
Think the distance between Devils Den and the upper western slope of Little Round Top (the hill where part of the Union line was positioned) would have been within the range of skilled Confederate sharpshooters, many of whom were armed with Enfields or long-range target rifles, and who were perched high among the rocks of Devil's Den or in more forward positions closer to the hill. The Confederate assault on Little Round Top began in the late afternoon of day 2 of the battle. The Confederate sharpshooters would have had the setting sun behind them, and they would have been able to see the silhouettes of Union figures on the upper slopes of Little Round Top to make targeted shots. Some of the sharpshooters' fire definitely found their marks. (Union officers like Vincent, Weed, Hazlett and O'Rorke, were hit by fatal shots on Little Round Top).

Below is a contemporary photograph (taken in 1863) of the western slope of Little Round Top showing the open views that would have been seen by the Confederate sharpshooters at or around Devil's Den. (Devil's Den is in the immediate unphotographed foreground of the picture). It can be observed that the hillside was largely cleared. Believe that livestock also roamed freely in the area at the time, and this kept the vegetation down. The boulders and rocks strewn across the ground in this zone too, would have enabled riflemen to vary their concealed positions to take clearer shots at targeted figures on the slopes.





1660140189937.jpeg
 
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Ok, I'll be totally honest, I know very little about this stuff but I'm trying to learn so please take it easy on me LOL. I just watched a video viewed from Devils Den looking up at Little Round Top. I understand the confederate army were firing from DD to LRT. I dont know the distance between the 2 locations. My question is, how accurate were those shots coming from DD to LRT or any location really. They only had iron sites for the most part correct? Were the soldiers just shooting in the general direction of the enemy? Thanks in advance for the replies!
That's not even close to a stupid question. Try again.:laugh:
 
In the map I looked at, the summit of DD has an elevation of 577 feet and LRT elevation is 656 feet., and the distance between the two summits is 733 yards. The Union regiments were below the summit, so essentially the Union and Confederate troops were at approximately the same height.

The question is: did the sharpshooters of either army have a good estimate of the distance between themselves and their enemy? With the weapons in use at the time, as the distance from the shooter to their target increases, the ability to accurately judge distance becomes more critical in hitting their target.

The nominal weight of their bullets was 500 grains, and the velocity of the fired bullet was just under the speed of sound, so call it 1150 fps. If their rifle was set up for a 100 yard zero, they would have to aim 75 feet above their target to hit a man at 700 yards. With a 300 yard zero, they would have to aim 52 feet above their target in order to hit it. All of this is to point out the huge ballistic arch involved in shooting a big heavy bullet at a slow velocity. To help compensate for this ballistic arch, rifles have adjustable rear sights. Perhaps a slight advantage would go to a soldier shooting an Enfield musket, as its rear sight incorporates a series of graduated elevations that would allow the shooter to continue to sight on his target out to 900 yards (I think), versus the Springfield which had a couple of flip up rear sights for shooting at 300 and 500 yards. With a target at 700 yards, a Springfield shooter would have to use "Kentucky elevation" (in other words, he would be sighting over his target), to shoot effectively at something further than 500 yards.
 
That said though it is really rough terrain going up that hill. You don't appreciate how rough it is till you see it in person. Lots of cover so getting a clear shot wouldn't be easy.
Yes it is, I've been there many times. I understand the guns would have been pretty accurate at that range. But picking a single target at that distance with the topography (lots-o-rocks) between the 2 areas must have been extremely difficult to actually hit someone in either direction. I could be completely off base here if I am please let me know. I have stood at Devils Den and looked up at Little Round Top. You would have to be a really good shot to pick out one person I would think. I'm a really good shot, it wouldn't be easy.
 
In the map I looked at, the summit of DD has an elevation of 577 feet and LRT elevation is 656 feet., and the distance between the two summits is 733 yards. The Union regiments were below the summit, so essentially the Union and Confederate troops were at approximately the same height.

The question is: did the sharpshooters of either army have a good estimate of the distance between themselves and their enemy? With the weapons in use at the time, as the distance from the shooter to their target increases, the ability to accurately judge distance becomes more critical in hitting their target.

The nominal weight of their bullets was 500 grains, and the velocity of the fired bullet was just under the speed of sound, so call it 1150 fps. If their rifle was set up for a 100 yard zero, they would have to aim 75 feet above their target to hit a man at 700 yards. With a 300 yard zero, they would have to aim 52 feet above their target in order to hit it. All of this is to point out the huge ballistic arch involved in shooting a big heavy bullet at a slow velocity. To help compensate for this ballistic arch, rifles have adjustable rear sights. Perhaps a slight advantage would go to a soldier shooting an Enfield musket, as its rear sight incorporates a series of graduated elevations that would allow the shooter to continue to sight on his target out to 900 yards (I think), versus the Springfield which had a couple of flip up rear sights for shooting at 300 and 500 yards. With a target at 700 yards, a Springfield shooter would have to use "Kentucky elevation" (in other words, he would be sighting over his target), to shoot effectively at something further than 500 yards.
Thanks for figuring that out! Now I have a better understanding!!!
 
In Fuller's "The Rifled Musket" there are reproductions ordinance bureau tests of a wide range of Civil War long guns. The targets were 6' X 6' with a cross centers for an aiming point. The circular error beyond 300 yards for rifled muskets exceeded the 3' radius of the target.

At the distances indicated in the posts on this thread, the sight picture of an individual would have been this lower case ' i '. Sit back from your computer screen or move your phone out arm's length to get an accurate picture of the target over open sights. Now imagine putting the front sight of a musket held at an angle akin to a howitzer on that target. Add wind, heat shimmer, powder smoke & haze from humidity to the picture for an accurate image of a target. Picking out an ' i ' from this paragraph is a good analogue. Thought provoking, isn't it?

Highly gifted far sighted individuals could score hits at long distance during the Civil War. One of Wilder's men, armed with a Spencer, scored hits on a mounted officer & his horse at extreme range, for example. Upon closer inspection, the target was a child standing next to a large dog. Claims of kills scored at phenomenal ranges should be taken not with a grain but with a whole bag full of salt.
 
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In Fuller's "The Rifled Musket" there are reproductions ordinance bureau tests of a wide range of Civil War long guns. The targets were 6' X 6' with a cross centers for an aiming point. The circular error beyond 300 yards for rifled muskets exceeded the 3' radius of the target.

At the distances indicated in the posts on this thread, the sight picture of an individual would have been this lower case ' i '. Sit back from your computer screen or move your phone out arm's length to get an accurate picture of the target over open sights. Now imagine putting the front sight of a musket held at an angle akin to a howitzer on that target. Add wind, heat shimmer, powder smoke & haze from humidity to the picture for an accurate image of a target. Picking out an ' i ' from this paragraph is a good analogue. Thought provoking, isn't it?

Highly gifted far sighted individuals could score hits at long distance during the Civil War. One of Wilder's men, armed with a Spencer, scored hits on a mounted officer & his horse at extreme range, for example. Upon closer inspection, the target was a child standing next to a large dog. Claims of kills scored at phenomenal ranges should be taken not with a grain but with a whole bag full of salt.
That is exactly my though. It was obviously within the realm of possibility. BUT, it had to be pretty difficult. I have stood on both sites. I understand it isn't REALLY that far but it is just far enough to make it a difficult shot. When you add the "fog of war", as you did, it could not have been easy. Thank You for the reply!!
 
Under Heth's system of marksmanship adopted by the U.S. Army prior to the Civil War, as the soldier moved to live firing he was to fire at distances from 150 to 1,000 yards [137 to 914 meters] at the following sized targets, which were divided by horizontal and vertical black lines crossing at the center:

Distance in YardsHeight of Target in FeetWidth of Target in Inches
150 and 225622
225 and 300644
325, 350, and 400666
450 and 500688
550 and 6006110
7006132
8006176
9006220
1,0006264

The six-foot height of the target required that the soldier understand the importance of range estimation and be trained to accurately estimate range. The widths of the targets were based upon the expectation that a trained soldier should be able to hit an individual enemy soldier at ranges to 300 yards [274 meters], the area occupied by an artillery piece and crew at 600 yards [547 meters], and the area occupied by an artillery section of two guns at 1,000 yards [914 meters].

Given the arched trajectory of the muzzle loading bullet and its increasingly constrained danger space as range increased, range estimation was of critical importance. Austrian Army soldiers were taught in training that:
  • At 30 Schritt [25 yards/22 meters] one could first distinguish the whites of the enemy's eyes.
  • At 50 Schritt [41 yards/39 meters] facial features were clearly visible, and the parts of the enemy's rifle could be clearly distinguished.
  • At 80 Schritt [65 yards/60 meters] the pupils of the enemy's eyes were visible.
  • At 100 Schritt [82 yards/75 meters] the nose, mouth, and general features of the enemy's face became visible, and the line between the enemy's face and his headgear was clear.
  • At 200 Schritt [164 yards/150 meters] the line between the enemy's face and headgear was visible, as was the rifle. The enemy's arms were visually separate from the body. When observing an enemy formation in close order, the dividing line between the face and the headgear appeared to be a continuous line.
  • At 300 Schritt [246 yards/227 meters] the enemy's face and headgear were a light and dark blur. The limbs were no longer visually separate from the body, but colors were still visible and might be separated from each other. The equipment of soldiers standing in closed lines formed horizontal lines.
  • At 400 Schritt [328 yards/303 meters] the enemy's face and headgear formed a single dark spot. The limbs were no longer visually separate from the body, but movement of the limbs could be observed. The enemy's closed order line formed a continuous or slightly dashed line, but individuals might still be counted.
  • At 500 Schritt [410 yards/378 meters] the enemy's closed order line appeared as a continuous line, and individuals might only be counted by a soldier with good vision.
  • At 600 Schritt [492 yards/454 meters] legs were still visible as a separate line in the enemy's closed order.
  • At 700 Schritt [574 yards/530 meters] the enemy's closed order line appeared continuous, and the soldiers' arms were only separately visible when in motion.
  • At 800 to 900 Schritt [656-738 yards/605-681 meters] the line of the legs disappeared, and it appeared as if the enemy's upper bodies were floating. Movement could only be observed by a soldier with good vision.
Similar judgements may be made by a trained soldier using the width of the front sight of their weapon vice the width of the target to effectively estimate range.

In 1862 Major G. L. Willard of the Federal Army published an abstract of Heth's system of instruction in a pocket-sized manual which could be easily carried in the field by an officer or sergeant. His system of instruction remained theoretically in force in the U.S. Army until Brevet Major General Emory Upton's tactical innovations for the U.S. Army following the Civil War, beginning with his New System of Infantry Tactics in 1867. Willard's manual stressed the absolute necessity of training soldiers in range estimation and devoted 10 pages to instructing officers how to do it.

A selected rifleman who had been trained to accurately estimate ranges, equipped with an Enfield or Austrian rifle musket with a graduated rear sight, and having practiced with that rifle and a known lot of ammunition on known distance ranges, was perfectly capable of hitting a man sized target at the distances being discussed here.

It ain't rocket science folks, it just required the training that most Civil War soldiers never got. For the 1st and 2nd U.S. Sharpshooters, the sharpshooter battalions of the Army of Northern Virginia, or the rare selected rifleman in other units, it was another matter entirely.

Regards,
Don Dixon
 
I don't know prevailing thoughts with guides or the NPS today on the validity of the shot, but 40 years ago, DD > LRT was measured at 523 yards by park officials (how?); so I was told by a park historian I knew as an LBG. While we debated the shot, we often came to discuss how poor the visibility must have been in that sector as it seemed so many jumped to the conclusion that it was a shot from DD that killed Gen. Weed and Lt. Hazlett. Our thoughts as guides and students of the battle were that it was a nice story, but an assumption as was done with Gen. Reynolds.
A few points we argued were....
* The collapse of Vincent's right (16th Mi collapse, 44th NY sagging/refusing)
* 48th Ala, 4th Tex maybe even the 5th (getting around Vincent's right) putting shots on the target. Lots of sizeable rocks and boulders in the area, more then than now to my understanding.
* Plum Run Valley had many rocks/boulders where a soldier could hide. Again, the visibility was poor for both 'clear shot selection' and for the shooter going undetected.
* Houck Ridge is quite a platform as well with many boulders. Benning had a lot of people in the area and Slaughter Pen with good sight lines and cover throughout the area.
* In fact, there are boulders, rocks, dips all over the valley floor (Plum Run was essentially a ditch) for ample cover.

That the shot could have been done was never in question with shots out to 1000 yards and more on record. The question for us was always if it did happen.
 
Under Heth's system of marksmanship adopted by the U.S. Army prior to the Civil War, as the soldier moved to live firing he was to fire at distances from 150 to 1,000 yards [137 to 914 meters] at the following sized targets, which were divided by horizontal and vertical black lines crossing at the center:

Distance in YardsHeight of Target in FeetWidth of Target in Inches
150 and 225622
225 and 300644
325, 350, and 400666
450 and 500688
550 and 6006110
7006132
8006176
9006220
1,0006264

The six-foot height of the target required that the soldier understand the importance of range estimation and be trained to accurately estimate range. The widths of the targets were based upon the expectation that a trained soldier should be able to hit an individual enemy soldier at ranges to 300 yards [274 meters], the area occupied by an artillery piece and crew at 600 yards [547 meters], and the area occupied by an artillery section of two guns at 1,000 yards [914 meters].

Given the arched trajectory of the muzzle loading bullet and its increasingly constrained danger space as range increased, range estimation was of critical importance. Austrian Army soldiers were taught in training that:
  • At 30 Schritt [25 yards/22 meters] one could first distinguish the whites of the enemy's eyes.
  • At 50 Schritt [41 yards/39 meters] facial features were clearly visible, and the parts of the enemy's rifle could be clearly distinguished.
  • At 80 Schritt [65 yards/60 meters] the pupils of the enemy's eyes were visible.
  • At 100 Schritt [82 yards/75 meters] the nose, mouth, and general features of the enemy's face became visible, and the line between the enemy's face and his headgear was clear.
  • At 200 Schritt [164 yards/150 meters] the line between the enemy's face and headgear was visible, as was the rifle. The enemy's arms were visually separate from the body. When observing an enemy formation in close order, the dividing line between the face and the headgear appeared to be a continuous line.
  • At 300 Schritt [246 yards/227 meters] the enemy's face and headgear were a light and dark blur. The limbs were no longer visually separate from the body, but colors were still visible and might be separated from each other. The equipment of soldiers standing in closed lines formed horizontal lines.
  • At 400 Schritt [328 yards/303 meters] the enemy's face and headgear formed a single dark spot. The limbs were no longer visually separate from the body, but movement of the limbs could be observed. The enemy's closed order line formed a continuous or slightly dashed line, but individuals might still be counted.
  • At 500 Schritt [410 yards/378 meters] the enemy's closed order line appeared as a continuous line, and individuals might only be counted by a soldier with good vision.
  • At 600 Schritt [492 yards/454 meters] legs were still visible as a separate line in the enemy's closed order.
  • At 700 Schritt [574 yards/530 meters] the enemy's closed order line appeared continuous, and the soldiers' arms were only separately visible when in motion.
  • At 800 to 900 Schritt [656-738 yards/605-681 meters] the line of the legs disappeared, and it appeared as if the enemy's upper bodies were floating. Movement could only be observed by a soldier with good vision.
Similar judgements may be made by a trained soldier using the width of the front sight of their weapon vice the width of the target to effectively estimate range.

In 1862 Major G. L. Willard of the Federal Army published an abstract of Heth's system of instruction in a pocket-sized manual which could be easily carried in the field by an officer or sergeant. His system of instruction remained theoretically in force in the U.S. Army until Brevet Major General Emory Upton's tactical innovations for the U.S. Army following the Civil War, beginning with his New System of Infantry Tactics in 1867. Willard's manual stressed the absolute necessity of training soldiers in range estimation and devoted 10 pages to instructing officers how to do it.

A selected rifleman who had been trained to accurately estimate ranges, equipped with an Enfield or Austrian rifle musket with a graduated rear sight, and having practiced with that rifle and a known lot of ammunition on known distance ranges, was perfectly capable of hitting a man sized target at the distances being discussed here.

It ain't rocket science folks, it just required the training that most Civil War soldiers never got. For the 1st and 2nd U.S. Sharpshooters, the sharpshooter battalions of the Army of Northern Virginia, or the rare selected rifleman in other units, it was another matter entirely.

Regards,
Don Dixon
That is some really great info! Again, I'm still learning. This was some really good detailed information, THANK YOU!!!!
 

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