Pickett Goes West???

[Norman Dasinger Jr]

What if Pickett was moved to Bragg or Pemberton in April of 1863? CSA government brought it up but Lee shot it down.

Here is another Pickett what if. His first wife had not died in childbirth. Therefore, he would not have become involved with Miss LaSalle (meeting her for the first time when she was 10 yrs old). How might that have changed the way he acted during the WBTS?

 

[Kearny The Magnificent]

Would his troops have saved Pemberton or provoked Bragg to do more? Maybe, maybe not. There's always the chance whatever the federal response would've been prevented such a move from mattering or hurt the south elsewhere to the point that the move's benefit would've been moot.

The reason I find the hypothetical so interesting is that it removes the two things which immortalized Pickett from history: the charge on July 3, 1863 (although as a North Carolinian I must remind everyone Pettigrew and Trimble's commands took part too!) and his second wife's work through books + group politics on maintaining his legacy stay positive as he aged/after he died. In a final loss to more contemporary history from this hypothetical, Stephen Lang would've never played him in the 1993 movie!

 

[jackt62]

What if Pickett was moved to Bragg or Pemberton in April of 1863? CSA government brought it up but Lee shot it down.

Interesting speculation. For sure, Longstreet and other members of the so-called "western concentration" advocated reinforcing forces under Bragg or Pemberton so sending Pickett's Division out west would make sense. In April 1863, Pickett had a respectable, if not overpowering combat career, well before he began a downward spiral after Gettysburg that led to command mishaps in North Carolina. That being said, without a proper concentration of force and a reliable command structure rather than the disjointed one under Johnston, western defense would have been doomed regardless of a Pickett transfer.

 

[jackt62]

Here is another Pickett what if. His first wife had not died in childbirth. Therefore, he would not have become involved with Miss LaSalle (meeting her for the first time when she was 10 yrs old). How might that have changed the way he acted during the WBTS?

That was always a weird relationship, IMO so I'm not so sure that first wife or not, LaSalle would still have factored somehow in his relationship. For whatever its worth, Pickett also had a common-law wife (a Native American), with which he fathered a son during his army posting in Washington Territory.

 

[danny]

Davis was anxious for Virginia troops to make an impact in the Western theater. IMO, Pickett would have been mediocre without Longstreet's guidance.

 

[Luke Freet]

The reasoning I heard Lee give for not wanting to send Pickett was due to his belief that the "climate" of Mississippi would adversely affect the Virginians who had little experience in the deep south; but of course, he could have sent McLaws' Or Hood's Divisions in his place, as they were all deep south troops.
As for if Pickett did get sent west, I do not imagine much would have changed. If he's sent to Johnston, he probably wouldn't have reached Jackson in time to do anything to help relieve Vicksburg (not that Johnston would have done enough to actually relieve the city if he had the resources). As for being sent to Bragg, I expect the usual command dysfunction, maybe even worse given Pickett's personality wouldn't help the situation.

 

[GwilymT]

What if Pickett was moved to Bragg or Pemberton in April of 1863? CSA government brought it up but Lee shot it down.

Here is another Pickett what if. His first wife had not died in childbirth. Therefore, he would not have become involved with Miss LaSalle (meeting her for the first time when she was 10 yrs old). How might that have changed the way he acted during the WBTS?

Perhaps he could have dubiously hanged more US soldiers out west than he was able to in North Carolina?

Seriously though, it's fairly clear that rebel leadership was out classed in the western theater and I'm not sure how spotty division commander George Pickett changes the equation.

 

[gc45]

Having visited Pickett's home in Bellingham Washington more than once, there is quite a bit of info there about his prior civil war history to including words of his Indian common law wife who lived with him. The home is well preserved and is the oldest house in Bellingham build before the town's incorporation. Pickett's Son was born there as well.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

As for being sent to Bragg, I expect the usual command dysfunction, maybe even worse given Pickett's personality wouldn't help the situation.

Agree. Think it highly likely that the flamboyant and brooding Pickett would inevitably have clashed with the irascible and difficult Bragg, exacerbating the command dysfunction already present.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

Seriously though, it's fairly clear that rebel leadership was out classed in the western theater and I'm not sure how spotty division commander George Pickett changes the equation.

Think the class in the relative competing leadership ranks were not as lopsided one way as perhaps is indicated.

Thought some of the South's best military leaders could be found operating in the western theater. These included Forrest, possibly the best cavalry leader of the Civil War, Cleburne, arguably the war's best Infantry Division commander, and then there was Hardee, a capable and solid Corps head who relinquished the role of Army leadership. There were also other capable Confederate leaders who served for brief periods through the war in this theater like Beauregard, one of the South's best engineers, and Kirby Smith, a highly effective independent Army commander.

But given the Confederacy's high command dysfunction which led to failures in coordination, as well as the lack of reinforcements, in the western theater, don't think Pickett's presence there would have changed this status quo or indeed added anything materially positive militarily for the Confederacy. Agree with the implication made that spotty division commander George Pickett would not have changed the equation.

 

[jackt62]

Thought some of the South's best military leaders could be found operating in the western theater

Agreed including other notables such as Taylor, Stewart, and Shelby. So as you note, the Confederacy's problems in the west had more to do with dysfunctional command structures and objectives starting with Bragg and his subordinates, and Johnston vs. Pemberton.

 

[Norman Dasinger Jr]

Perhaps he could have dubiously hanged more US soldiers out west than he was able to in North Carolina?

Seriously though, it's fairly clear that rebel leadership was out classed in the western theater and I'm not sure how spotty division commander George Pickett changes the equation.

I assume the incident happened in Kinston, NC. Is the location known and/or marked with a sign? As I understand it, the men captured had,at one time, been soldiers in either the NC State Reserves or the regular Confederate ARmy and then turned.

 

[Luke Freet]

I assume the incident happened in Kinston, NC. Is the location known and/or marked with a sign? As I understand it, the men captured had,at one time, been soldiers in either the NC State Reserves or the regular Confederate ARmy and then turned.

They were part of the North Carolina Home Guard, a prewar militia unit; though it seems they were merely on the muster rolls & did not take up arms until Union forces landed & they joined the Union army. Because of this, they were not deserters as Pickett believed them to be.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

Agreed including other notables such as Taylor, Stewart, and Shelby.

Could probably add to this list too, S. D. Lee, a capable artillery and later Army Corps commander, as well as Jeremy Gilmer, the able engineering chief who supervised the defenses of Atlanta and Mobile.

 

[nc native]

One thing about Pickett being sent west, three of the five brigades in his division would have missed the disaster that awaited them at Gettysburg. Pickett was a capable brigade commander but being new at division command, moving to an unfamiliar theatre of operations and knowing what we know now about his ability to handle division command I don't see how he and his division could have reversed Confederate fortunes at Vicksburg. His division may have been of some help to Bragg from a numerical standpoint at Chickamauga and Chattanooga and Longstreet may not have been transferred west after Gettysburg as he was.

 

[jackt62]

Could probably add to this list too, S. D. Lee, a capable artillery and later Army Corps commander, as well as Jeremy Gilmer, the able engineering chief who supervised the defenses of Atlanta and Mobile.

I thought of Lee afterwards, but not Gilmer, another excellent addition.

 

[GwilymT]

I assume the incident happened in Kinston, NC. Is the location known and/or marked with a sign? As I understand it, the men captured had,at one time, been soldiers in either the NC State Reserves or the regular Confederate ARmy and then turned.

Unless the UDC or SCV has put up a marker glorifying Pickett's murders I'd imagine there's not much. There was a small historical marker but I'm not sure if it has been removed or not.

There are plenty of threads on this particular issue. Let's stick to what, if any, impact Pickett could have had in the western theater.

 

[Luke Freet]

Could probably add to this list too, S. D. Lee, a capable artillery and later Army Corps commander, as well as Jeremy Gilmer, the able engineering chief who supervised the defenses of Atlanta and Mobile.

Lee...I despise Lee. He's excellent at Chickasaw bayou & as an artilleryman at Antietam. But when he was given larger numbers of cavalry & infantry he drops the ball hard. Tupelo, Ezra Church, & Jonesboro are horrendous performances on his part.

Gilmer, on the other hand, is much more interesting.

 

[uaskme]

If Lee had of sent troops west, their wouldn't had been a Gettysburg.

Longstreet was a force multiplier at Chickamauga. If the Confederates could of won either in mid TN or Vicksburg and with no loss at Gettysburg, it would of made a difference. Johnson advocated sending Troops to mid TN who had a Federal Army within 30 miles of him. Fighting there then turning on Vicksburg. Johnson could of replaced Bragg. Davis fighting on 3 fronts and losing all 3 was ridiculous.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

I thought of Lee afterwards, but not Gilmer, another excellent addition.

Thought another noteworthy Southern military leader who performed very well in the western theater was Georgian, John Stevens Bowen, who rose from Brigade to Division leadership. Pemberton rated him as, 'one of the best soldiers in the Confederate Army'. Unfortunately, Bowen died from dysentry on July 13, 1863, at Edwards, Mississippi, during the prime of his military career. He was considered an outstanding combat commander who was destined for an even higher command role, if he had survived.