Pemberton a scapegoat?

[atlantis]

Davis ordered Pemberton to hold Vicksburg and Pemberton obeyed orders. Did Davis let Pemberton take the blame for defeat?

 

[Sid J.]

Davis ordered Pemberton to hold Vicksburg and Pemberton obeyed orders. Did Davis let Pemberton take the blame for defeat?

It was Joe Johnston who tossed Pemberton under the buggy.

 

[Greyfalcon]

Davis ordered Pemberton to hold Vicksburg and Pemberton obeyed orders. Did Davis let Pemberton take the blame for defeat?

I don't think Davis let him take the blame. I just think he was blamed. His being a Northerner who "married south" had already caused him grief. His only other option was to follow Johnston's counsel and give Vicksburg up. Not much of an alternative. Davis thought Pemberton made the right decision and stuck by him. Not so, Johnston.

 

[TFSmith121]

Davis ordered Pemberton to hold Vicksburg and Pemberton obeyed orders. Did Davis let Pemberton take the blame for defeat?

No more so than Buckner... Grant had a way of turning chivalry into scapegoats.

Best,

 

[jackt62]

One of the few friends that Pemberton had in the south was President Davis, who also attempted to find a suitable posting for him after the Vicksburg surrender.

 

[leftyhunter]

One of the few friends that Pemberton had in the south was President Davis, who also attempted to find a suitable posting for him after the Vicksburg surrender.

Interesting I didn't know Pemperton had a post Vicksburg military career. One would of thought one major humiliation was enough.
Leftyhunter

 

[TFSmith121]

Interesting I didn't know Pemperton had a post Vicksburg military career. One would of thought one major humiliation was enough.
Leftyhunter

He was busted to colonel after being exchanged but Davis assigned him as a senior artillery officer in the Richmond defenses.

Best,

 

[Bee]

I don't think Davis let him take the blame. I just think he was blamed. His being a Northerner who "married south" had already caused him grief

Pemberton's very loyalty to the South and its cause was called into question. After the battle of Champion Hill on May 16, Confederate Surgeon John A. Leavy voiced the harshest criticism:

"Today proved to the army and the country, the value of a General. Pemberton is either a traitor or the most incompetent officer in the Confederacy. Indecision, indecision, indecision ... Is he a traitor? Time will show. I cannot believe him such a villain. He is incompetent. Our soldiers and officers are determined not to be sold if they can possibly help it." http://www.civilwar.org/battlefields/vicksburg/vicksburg-history-articles/pembertonsmithhg.html#​

 

[leftyhunter]

One of the few friends that Pemberton had in the south was President Davis, who also attempted to find a suitable posting for him after the Vicksburg surrender.

He was busted to colonel after being exchanged but Davis assigned him as a senior artillery officer in the Richmond defenses.

Best,

I just read the Wiki account of Pemperton. Pemperton in 1861 was a career army officer who achieved the rank of captain after over 20 years of distinguished service. Pemperton was arguably promoted well past his abilitues to Lt.General. Of course so were many other high ranking officers on both sides. The antebellum army was very small at just sixteen thousand authorized men and their were just a relative handful of commissioned officers available to both sides.
Pemperton is arguably the wrong man at the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe Pemperton did the best he could with what he had in the way of forces and logistics.
Leftyhunter

 

[TFSmith121]

I just read the Wiki account of Pemperton. Pemperton in 1861 was a career army officer who achieved the rank of captain after over 20 years of distinguished service. Pemperton was arguably promoted well past his abilitues to Lt.General. Of course so were many other high ranking officers on both sides. The antebellum army was very small at just sixteen thousand authorized men and their were just a relative handful of commissioned officers available to both sides.
Pemperton is arguably the wrong man at the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe Pemperton did the best he could with what he had in the way of forces and logistics.
Leftyhunter

There's also the minor point he was facing Grant leading the Army of the Tennessee, and with the USN in support, and in 1863.

Talk about wrong place at the wrong time.

Best,

 

[leftyhunter]

There's also the minor point he was facing Grant leading the Army of the Tennessee, and with the USN in support, and in 1863.

Talk about wrong place at the wrong time.

Best,

That goes to wrong place wrong time. Arguably no Confederate General could of held Vicksburg.
Leftyhunter

 

[Bee]

Pemperton is arguably the wrong man at the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe Pemperton did the best he could with what he had in the way of forces and logistics.
Leftyhunter

The article titled above characterizing Pemberton as "the wrong man at the wrong place", is quite harsh it is evaluation of Pemberton's overall standing as a leader:

Historically, successful battlefield commanders possessed certain common characteristics. Civil War commanders such as Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S. Grant are notable because they shared the qualities of perspective, responsibility, intuition, daring, and endurance. These traits were conspicuously lacking in the leadership of Lieutenant General John C. Pemberton during the Vicksburg campaign. http://www.civilwar.org/battlefields/vicksburg/vicksburg-history-articles/pembertonsmithhg.html#​

 

[Allie]

Pemberton's very loyalty to the South and its cause was called into question. After the battle of Champion Hill on May 16, Confederate Surgeon John A. Leavy voiced the harshest criticism:

"Today proved to the army and the country, the value of a General. Pemberton is either a traitor or the most incompetent officer in the Confederacy. Indecision, indecision, indecision ... Is he a traitor? Time will show. I cannot believe him such a villain. He is incompetent. Our soldiers and officers are determined not to be sold if they can possibly help it." http://www.civilwar.org/battlefields/vicksburg/vicksburg-history-articles/pembertonsmithhg.html#​

What did he actually do wrong other than being put in an impossible situation? I mean, what specific thing is Leavy saying should have been done differently?

 

[TFSmith121]

That goes to wrong place wrong time. Arguably no Confederate General could of held Vicksburg.
Leftyhunter

True. JE Johnston couldn't have done significantly better with the resources the rebellion had available in Mississippi at the time.

Best,

 

[Bee]

What did he actually do wrong other than being put in an impossible situation? I mean, what specific thing is Leavy saying should have been done differently?

Whilst the article clearly does not have a positive view on Pemberton, it does agree that the harsh judgment of Pemberton's loyalty was unfounded.

 

[TFSmith121]

What did he actually do wrong other than being put in an impossible situation? I mean, what specific thing is Leavy saying should have been done differently?

Pretty good case that he was entirely reactive to the US forces' movements; he surrendered the initiative, which basically meant he was more likely to end up getting besieged in Vicksburg, rather than being mobile in the countryside and in a position to delay Grant et al to the point Johnston or anyone else could get within range to support Pemberton's force.

No simple answer for the rebels, but avoiding being driven into the Vicksburg defenses would have given them some additional options.

http://www.civilwar.org/battlefields/vicksburg/vicksburg-history-articles/pembertonsmithhg.html#

Best,

 

[Yankeedave]

How many rebs could have been pulled together with johnson and pemberton. and others?

 

[TFSmith121]

How many rebs could have been pulled together with johnson and pemberton. and others?

Pemberton had about 33,000 (29,000 actually surrendered at Vicksburg) at the high point; Gardner had maybe 8,000 at Port Hudson. If you give Johnston the 6,000 he had at Jackson and the other 18,000 or so they scraped up after the surrenders at Vicksburg and Port Hudson, it might total 65,000, if you are very charitable.

At the same time, Grant had 77,000 at the high point and Banks another 35,000-40,000 in his forces, so maybe 110,000-120,000 opposed to a maximum of 65,000... And the US hadn't really started recruiting the USCTs of the Mississippi Valley by that point.

Best,

 

[Greyfalcon]

Pemberton's very loyalty to the South and its cause was called into question.

It was, but those that did so were wrong. Even when Pemberton was only offered a Lt. Colonelcy of artillery at the end of the war, he took it and fought in the last defence of Richmond. When Richmond fell, he took the last guns of his command and retreated to the Carolina's, being one of the last of the confederate forces in the field, to surrender.

 

[Yankeedave]

Pemberton had about 33,000 (29,000 actually surrendered at Vicksburg) at the high point; Gardner had maybe 8,000 at Port Hudson. If you given Johnston the 6,000 he had at Jackson and the other 18,000 or so they scraped up after the surrenders at Vicksburg and Port Hudon, it might total 65,000, if you are very charitable.

At the same time, Grant had 77,000 at the high point and Banks another 35,000-40,000 in his forces, so maybe 110,000-120,000 opposed to a maximum of 65,000... And the US hadn't really started recruiting the USCTs of the Mississippi Valley by that point.

Best,

I can see the alure of trenches.