PDL / Tiffany Presentation Sword?

[Present Arms]

Sword experts: Please give your input about this sword. A fellow collectors club member showed this presentation sword to me. He said that about fifteen years ago, someone at a gun show declared the sword to be fake, and the disappointed owner put it away until yesterday. Peterson believed that the PDL mark is from P.D. Luneschloss of Solingen, Germany and is found on enlisted men's sabers sold by Tiffany & Co. The PDL is crisp and even but, in my humble opinion, the cast brass components are not crisp. The engraved dedication is "To Gerald Russell, Lieutenant 3rd Cavalry, From His Irish Comrades For, Bravery Against the Foe Sept 4 1862." Jerry Russell was an Irish born Kiplingesque officer promoted from the ranks who first appears in the record as an acting second lieutenant leading a detachment against Indians at Canon Ladrone, Arizona on June 18th, 1862. The 3rd Cavalry operated against Native Americans and Texas Confederates until it re-located to the Western Theater for the rest of the ACW. The regiment then returned to the west and Captain Russell campaigned with Crook in the 1870's. His larger-than-life personality was described at length by one of his soldiers. What do you think about this item?

 

[bobinwmass]

The Arizona Swords website says this is a fake made by House of Swords. They were known to add fake presentations of real soldiers.

 

[UCVRelics]

Sword experts: Please give your input about this sword. A fellow collectors club member showed this presentation sword to me. He said that about fifteen years ago, someone at a gun show declared the sword to be fake, and the disappointed owner put it away until yesterday. Peterson believed that the PDL mark is from P.D. Luneschloss of Solingen, Germany and is found on enlisted men's sabers sold by Tiffany & Co. The PDL is crisp and even but, in my humble opinion, the cast brass components are not crisp. The engraved dedication is "To Gerald Russell, Lieutenant 3rd Cavalry, From His Irish Comrades For, Bravery Against the Foe Sept 4 1862." Jerry Russell was an Irish born Kiplingesque officer promoted from the ranks who first appears in the record as an acting second lieutenant leading a detachment against Indians at Canon Ladrone, Arizona on June 18th, 1862. The 3rd Cavalry operated against Native Americans and Texas Confederates until it re-located to the Western Theater for the rest of the ACW. The regiment then returned to the west and Captain Russell campaigned with Crook in the 1870's. His larger-than-life personality was described at length by one of his soldiers. What do you think about this item?
View attachment 464612
View attachment 464613

View attachment 464614

View attachment 464615

View attachment 464616

The presentation engraving is the tell tell sign its fake and I don't see a Tiffany mark and Tiffany stamped their name on everything.

 

[bayonet]

The presentation engraving is the tell tell sign its fake and I don't see a Tiffany mark and Tiffany stamped their name on everything.

This man knows more than me (but I'm better looking) but even I can tell that engraving is hokie!

 

[Present Arms]

Thank you for your guidance! I will add Arizona Swords to my reference material.

 

[Present Arms]

I ordered a copy of the latest House of Swords catalog that I could find on the internet to add to my reference library. I could not find the PDL sword in my current library, so the catalog will be a good baloney meter.

 

[Cavalier]

Its to bad the sword is a fake, but the story of Jerry Russell sounds facinating.

John

 

[Jonl51]

Hello,
Sorry about that sword. Here are pictures of the real thing. Note the difference in the fine details between the two. Best. Jonl51

 

[Present Arms]

You are right. The quality is obvious. Thanks!

 

[bobinwmass]

Hello,
Sorry about that sword. Here are pictures of the real thing. Note the difference in the fine details between the two. Best. Jonl51

View attachment 466130

View attachment 466131

The Arizona Sword website also shows this version as being a fake by House of Swords. While it is more detailed than the original sword discussed, something looks wrong with the brass castings and blade to me.

 

[Gandycreek]

Wow. The plot thickens...

 

[Jonl51]

The Arizona Sword website also shows this version as being a fake by House of Swords. While it is more detailed than the original sword discussed, something looks wrong with the brass castings and blade to me.

Hello. Pictures please? Thanks Jonl51

 

[bobinwmass]

Hello. Pictures please? Thanks Jonl51

Can't use copyrighted pictures, but look at his website. He shows this one as a fake, and then an original of this one, with much finer hand chasing in the hilt. Those photos have his watermark on them so I don't want to copy them. Trying to follow the rules.

 

[bobinwmass]

Actually, the one he says is fake doesn't have watermark, so here it is.

 

[bayonet]

this thread is 0-2 on swords now. Cleveland Browns have a better chance of winning the Super Bowl then you 2 young fellas above have of judging real or fake swords. Post on this site before you buy and get duped! Don't feel bad at one time or another we all been duped, happily I recovered well from mine over the years.

 

[Jonl51]

Actually, the one he says is fake doesn't have watermark, so here it is.

View attachment 466180

Appreciate the follow up. Hard to tell but here are pictures from Bedzek's reference book.

 

[bobinwmass]

Appreciate the follow up. Hard to tell but here are pictures from Bedzek's reference book.

View attachment 466215

View attachment 466216

If you look at the eagle head in Bedzek's, you'll see it more three dimensional and pleasant looking, not just having incised lines for detail. The rear foot in Bedzek's also is more accurate and proportional, the upper part of the leg looking more like a "scaley" bird leg, again not just detailed with inscrbed lines. Finally, look at the wing feathers, Bedzek's example have the wing feathers going almost all the way to the border of the hilt. Yours and the fake shown in Arizona Swords has the wing ending well before the border.

 

[Jonl51]

If you look at the eagle head in Bedzek's, you'll see it more three dimensional and pleasant looking, not just having incised lines for detail. The rear foot in Bedzek's also is more accurate and proportional, the upper part of the leg looking more like a "scaley" bird leg, again not just detailed with inscrbed lines. Finally, look at the wing feathers, Bedzek's example have the wing feathers going almost all the way to the border of the hilt. Yours and the fake shown in Arizona Swords has the wing ending well before the border.

If the hilts were supposedly made by the same maker, Clauberg, in Bedzek's case you may be correct, but was Clauberg the only maker of this hilt type? Very possibly not. Thanks

 

[bobinwmass]

If the hilts were supposedly made by the same maker, Clauberg, in Bedzek's case you may be correct, but was Clauberg the only maker of this hilt type? Very possibly not. Thanks

I think it would also be interesting to see some photos of the designs on your blade, particularly the eagle. While House of Swords did apparently use some real blades, the designs on most of their blades were cast into the blade, instead of being acid etched as was done on originals.

 

[bayonet]

Didn't that owner Joe Walter of the House of Swords get shot in the head over a collection deal gone wrong involving fake Civil War Swords?