Opinions on these Flintlocks

[Johnny676767]

Hello everyone,

I have been looking to purchase an early model Springfield or Harpers Ferry flintlock. I'm hoping to get an original, not a reconversion. I've just been looking online and spotted these 3 that might work. I was hoping to get some expert opinions. what does everyone think? I appreciate it.

U.S. Model 1812 Flintlock Musket
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/116191331

Harpers Ferry Charleville Pattern Type III Musket
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/116191339

U.S. Model 1816 Flintlock Musket
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/116191348

 

[Dbackfed29]

They are all very nice. Word to.the wise, it is never good to show items you plan to bid on to other people unless you want to increase the amount of people you bid against.
If you are unsure about a musket, I would recommend showing it to some friends who are knowledgeable because other collectors and dealers may try to snatch up the same items you posted.

 

[rob63]

I wish auctioneers would devote the time to taking better photographs!

I don't know if I would use the word "expert" to describe myself, but I can give you my opinion fwiw.

The first one (Model 1812) is an interesting mish-mash of parts from different eras, screws used in incorrect ways, etc. The large screw holding the frizzen is fascinating! Stay away from this one.

I would also avoid the third one (Model 1816) just because it has so much corrosion. Letting it get rusty is a common method of hiding the problems, so it makes me very suspicious, particularly with it being a model that was typically converted to percussion.

I would really prefer better photos and a hands-on examination, but if you are going to bid on one the second one (Charleville Pattern) is your best bet. Nothing about it is obviously wrong. The lock parts are the correct style. The furniture is the correct style. My only concern would be the end of the spring that holds the frizzen in place should have a very small tit. Maybe it doesn't show in the photo, maybe it is an old replacement, hard to tell. I like this musket, and I promise, I won't bid against you.

 

[Johnny676767]

Thanks for the comments. I've been trying to examine them using books and pictures to determine originality, but it's not that easy.

I know there's the potential of "advertising " and maybe someone else will bid against me. However, for me being a novice collector, the risk is greater of buying a clunker.

 

[rob63]

Thanks for the comments. I've been trying to examine them using books and pictures to determine originality, but it's not that easy.

I know there's the potential of "advertising " and maybe someone else will bid against me. However, for me being a novice collector, the risk is greater of buying a clunker.

You are definitely better off asking questions. Dealers and collectors will find everything listed at online auctions anyway, the internet is no longer a secret.

You also might consider buying some books, taking your time, and learning as much as possible before you worry about buying a musket. They are fascinating to learn about and you will appreciate whatever you end up with more if you are knowledgeable. I highly recommend the books by Peter Schmidt, but I am sure there are other ones that are worthwhile.

 

[Badgercwcollector]

I wish auctioneers would devote the time to taking better photographs!

I don't know if I would use the word "expert" to describe myself, but I can give you my opinion fwiw.

The first one (Model 1812) is an interesting mish-mash of parts from different eras, screws used in incorrect ways, etc. The large screw holding the frizzen is fascinating! Stay away from this one.

I would also avoid the third one (Model 1816) just because it has so much corrosion. Letting it get rusty is a common method of hiding the problems, so it makes me very suspicious, particularly with it being a model that was typically converted to percussion.

I would really prefer better photos and a hands-on examination, but if you are going to bid on one the second one (Charleville Pattern) is your best bet. Nothing about it is obviously wrong. The lock parts are the correct style. The furniture is the correct style. My only concern would be the end of the spring that holds the frizzen in place should have a very small tit. Maybe it doesn't show in the photo, maybe it is an old replacement, hard to tell. I like this musket, and I promise, I won't bid against you.

Sometimes bad photos can be good as a recent online auction I bid and won on a group of fuzzy looking cdv's and thought 1 might be a military and as luck would have it were 2 CW soldiers . I gave a compliment to a recent auction house about how good their photos were as my wife collects antique dolls and the photos were very well done and detailed. Some auction houses get it and some get lazy. JMHO

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

Ditto @rob63's recommendations on books. George Moller's "American Military Shoulder Arms" will also be of interest, particularly volume 2. Since the OP is in Maryland I would also suggest holding off and attending the Baltimore show in March. There will doubtlessly be a large number of nice flintlock muskets there for examination.

IMHO, the Harpers Ferry 1795 is the only one of the three that were linked that I would throw money after.

 

[bayonet]

Don't ya love when Auction Houses are wrong and you correct them. Waiting to hear back from one I corrected and said they listed the item wrong and should of posted more than 2 pics as in turn the item over. One Dealer I put money down on an item but was finally able to research a marking proving they were wrong on the date of the item. So I asked for my deposit to be switched to another item. I was still giving them business. When they asked why they got mad and threatened to keep my deposit and bar me from further business. I reminded them I used my Credit Card and I WILL get my money back. They caved in and still love my business plus send me a Christmas Card every year, I'm on their e-mail list, and knock items down a bit on price if I request it.

 

[bayonet]

Is that a rock or actually a piece of flint in the second one? That is the biggest musket flint I've ever seen! Good luck moving that rusted jaw screw. Well if money is tight go for #3 and enjoy a project of cleaning it up otherwise #2. #1 is laughable. No way to tell from the pics if they been reconverted back to flint from percussion.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

Johnny676767;

Decide what condition you'd like to have, then search.

IMHO after many years in this game, you are looking at potential door stops or maybe lamps.

If you only want one... get a nice condition, 100% original one and you'll never regret your purchase.

 

[Johnny676767]

Door stops and lamps? Based on all the feedback, I guess I need to keep looking. That's the advice I needed even if I need to practice my patience. Seriously, thanks for the candor. I might be better served holding off to the Baltimore show. In the meantime, I'll hit the books.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

Don't know where you're located, but there's a mega-show in Franklin, Tn. at the end of the month. A very high probability you can find exactly what you want there.

 

[RSMorris]

Johnny676767;

Decide what condition you'd like to have, then search.

IMHO after many years in this game, you are looking at potential door stops or maybe lamps.

If you only want one... get a nice condition, 100% original one and you'll never regret your purchase.

Looking at the pics of the second one, do you see anything off about it, other than the boulder sized flint?

 

[Dbackfed29]

So, how did you do this weekend? I picked up my two items I wanted (m1816 Harpers Ferry and a rare Saxon musket w/bayonet)

 

[RSMorris]

So, how did you do this weekend? I picked up my two items I wanted (m1816 Harpers Ferry and a rare Saxon musket w/bayonet)

On Saturday bought a M1842. 1855 Harpers Ferry with Q marks. Not at the auction though. I had placed bids but wasn't home when the auction happened so just missed out on the M1816 H.P. Flintlock

 

[rebracer]

On Saturday bought a M1842. 1855 Harpers Ferry with Q marks. Not at the auction though. I had placed bids but wasn't home when the auction happened so just missed out on the M1816 H.P. Flintlock

I would certainly like to see this M1842!

 

[RSMorris]

I would certainly like to see this M1842!

I am getting it tomorrow according to U.P.S. If I do, will post pics on another thread and send you the link. Thank you for the interest.