Oops, big lump of your posts....

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brass napoleon

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#21
Not to be a stickler, but there were wars between Native American tribes in the northeast too - quite frequently. And they definitely did enslave, torture, and ritually kill each other. The unspeakable tortures they inflicted on the white man were learned from centuries of experimentation torturing each other.
 

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#24
One of the key differences, I think, might have been the dynamics in the New England area in the years 1585-1675.
It's said (by Nathan Phibrick at least) that the population of the MA/RI/CT/ME area in 1550 was several tens of times larger than it was in 1600. This caused a huge realignment of political and military power among the tribes of the area, and in fact is one of the things that drove the dynamics between the Wampanoags and the Pilgrims, as the weakened tribes sought allies against their similarly weakened but still strong neighbors such as the Narragansett and Massachusett.
Regardless, the precipitous decline in NA population in the pre-English years may have made them more likely to attempt to adopt captives. Regardless, that scale of loss must have had some effect.
 

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One of the key differences, I think, might have been the dynamics in the New England area in the years 1585-1675.
It's said (by Nathan Phibrick at least) that the population of the MA/RI/CT/ME area in 1550 was several tens of times larger than it was in 1600. This caused a huge realignment of political and military power among the tribes of the area, and in fact is one of the things that drove the dynamics between the Wampanoags and the Pilgrims, as the weakened tribes sought allies against their similarly weakened but still strong neighbors such as the Narragansett and Massachusett.
Regardless, the precipitous decline in NA population in the pre-English years may have made them more likely to attempt to adopt captives. Regardless, that scale of loss must have had some effect.
I think that theory is probably right. The author of the book 1491 says much the same thing.

There used to be a lot of estimates about how many Native Americans were in the New World prior to European contact. In the last decade those estimates have trended way up by researchers and paleo-anthropologists.
 

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K Hale

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The kindly type of captivity being discussed here is not typical of a young woman taken by the Comanche or other plains tribes. Ritual rape and torture by the raiding party was quite common among the Comanche. There are several excellent books about this--"The Captured" by Scott Zesch details the Salt Creek raid; "Indian Depredations in Texas" by J.W. Wilbarger; and the accounts of Cynthia Ann Parker's relative, Rachel Plummer. Olive Oatman, quite famous in her time, bore the scars from her capture by the Yavapai the rest of her life.
I guess she failed to adapt to her adoption.
 

K Hale

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Not to be sexist, but I think we may be better able to comprehend the full implications of captivity and all it entailed. :smile:
It does kinda seem that way. Is this where we play the "Imagine if it was your daughter" card?
 

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#34
Not at all. Adapt like you'd applied for political exile to Canada, and courtesy of a wormhole, Quebec in 1750. It's different, it's coarse, but it is a fully functioning society with its own set of mores. Not some secretive freak with a yard barn.
Political exile to Canada does not involve forced "marriage," rape, and childbearing to some Canadian guy, only to be given "freedom" to leave eventually while leaving the children behind.

I mean... really.
 

Nathanb1

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Political exile to Canada does not involve forced "marriage," rape, and childbearing to some Canadian guy, only to be given "freedom" to leave eventually while leaving the children behind.

I mean... really.
And don't forget your dead husband whose head was bashed in back in Lancaster (and your children). Yep, I bet Tabitha was snappin' photos all the way to Canada, and that she really, really enjoyed hiking up and down mountains barefoot and being in constant fear of being tortured and killed. Yeah, what a vacation.
 

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#36
Yep, we're descended from the "gallant and intrepid Indian Fighter," Thomas Wheeler. Yankees. Puritans. Who'da thought it? (Dorothea Wheeler married Alexander G. Powers of Maine--I am so Yankeefied I'm surprised my backside isn't red, white and blue)
My ancestor was John Tisdale of Plymouth Colony in 1634. He was murdered in 1675 by Indians. Type "v-e-r-i-z-o-n" in link below.

"[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In 1675 King Philip’s war came to Freetown.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Either on June 27, 1675, as reported to the Plymouth Court by Shadrach Wilbore, or, or on April 4, 1675, as stated in a letter by John Freeman, an officer in the war. John Tisdale was killed by Indians.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]It was reported that three men were slain: John Tisdale, Sr., John Knowles and Samuel Atkins. John Tisdale’s house was burned as was the house of his brother-in-law James Walker. John’s gun was carried off by the Indians. The gun was retaken at Rehoboth on Aug 1 1675, where it was found with the body of an Indian who was slain there. The gun was later used as evidence in court.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Sarah Walker Tisdale did not outlive her husband by much. She died on Dec 10 1676, in Taunton.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]John’s estate was settled on March 6 1677. That same day, three Indians: Timothy Jacked, Massamaquat and Pompachonshe were indicted for the murder of John and the other two men, on the evidence of having John’s gun. Charges against one were dropped for lack of evidence. The other two wre deemed probably guilty. All three were sold into slavery, and removed from the country."[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
http://mysite.*******.net/marcinia/id1.html
 

Nathanb1

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#37
Howdy, neighbor. This discussion fits in with my grad class on the Frontier and the question, "Where exactly WAS the frontier?" I guess for our ancestors, it was bumped right up against the Atlantic Ocean. The funny part is, as far as I know, my family survived the Comanches and Apaches on what we normally think of as the frontier!
 
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#38
And don't forget your dead husband whose head was bashed in back in Lancaster (and your children). Yep, I bet Tabitha was snappin' photos all the way to Canada, and that she really, really enjoyed hiking up and down mountains barefoot and being in constant fear of being tortured and killed. Yeah, what a vacation.
They might have had their own culture, but people who do that are still the kind of neighbors I have trouble seeing as possible to live peacefully with.

Raiding (for horses and such) is one thing. This is just...well, speaking as a guy, it brings out the chivalrous instincts. And the smiting ones.

Doesn't mean what we (whites) did to them was okay, but they're not exactly innocents.
 

Nathanb1

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#39
They might have had their own culture, but people who do that are still the kind of neighbors I have trouble seeing as possible to live peacefully with.

Raiding (for horses and such) is one thing. This is just...well, speaking as a guy, it brings out the chivalrous instincts. And the smiting ones.

Doesn't mean what we (whites) did to them was okay, but they're not exactly innocents.
I guess that's what you get when you send a bunch of well-mannered Englishmen into a place where raiding is a tradition. We must have missed the lesson they gave back on the boat about getting in the first lick!
 
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#40
GxGrandparents killed in King Philip's War:
Lydia Adams, Richard Carder, John Gallup, John Leonard, John Stedman, Phineas Upham, that I know of. James Travis apparently was captured and held for two years.

One impact: as parts of these families moved into Pennsylvania following the Revolution 130 years later, they buried their first crop of deceased in unmarked graves - to prevent any suspicion they'd been weakened. OPSEC apparently having been a lesson purchased dear and held tight.
 
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