One Nation Under God.

[War Horse]

Sitting here on a Saturday morning without much to do (Finally) I couldn't help but ponder what if the South's bid for independence would have been successful? The liberty's and freedom we enjoy today were certainly paid for with the blood of both our northern and southern ancestors fighting together as brothers. Had the Confederacy been successful and achieved independence how would that have effected the way we live today. One can only wonder, I think it would have effected everything. Western expansion was only in its infancy at the time. North and South would have been biding for each territory which means the fighting would have continued. Native Americans would have been recruited as allies for one if not both countries. The great world conflicts of the future would have certainly been different. Would the Union and Confederacy have allied or would they have opposed each other?
I for one think that the crises to come would have reunited us into one country again but maybe not. I know it's silly pondering fiction, but what if?

 

[FarawayFriend]

As a foreign observer I'm allowing myself to say that your nation or better your two countries would by far not have been as powerful as they are as "United States". I'm always very impressed when I see the respect and passion you Americans show towards your flag, your national anthem, your veterans... nothing of this would be the same if there were two states. I know that @Pat Young will not agree to this, but here in Europe the United States are "America". I could observe this in Italy from where I have just returned, as well as in Germany or any other European country I have visited.
As much as I am in love with my romantic image of the Ante-bellum South: chivalrous gentlemen, Southern Belles, beautiful mansions... and a certain melancholic or maybe languishing mood... it could not have lasted. In the end everything is about money, and money was made in the industrialized regions of the North. The agricultural South could not have survived.
To me as a foreigner the South was a beautiful dream of a doomed lifestyle.
But be happy that you now are One Nation under God!

 

[War Horse]

As a foreign observer I'm allowing myself to say that your nation or better your two countries would by far not as powerful as they are as "United States". I'm always very impressed when I see the respect and passion you Americans show towards your flag, your national anthem, your veterans... nothing of this would be the same if there were two states. I know that @Pat Young will not agree to this, but jete in Europe the United States are "America". I could observe this in Italy from where I have just returned, as well as in Germany or any other European country I have visited.
As much ad I am in love with my romantic image of the Ante-bellum South: chivalrous gentlemen, Southern Belles, beautiful mansions... and a certain melancholic or maybe languishing mood... it could not have lasted. In the end everything is about money, and money was made in the industrialized regions of the North. The agricultural South could not have survived.
To me as a foreigner the South was a beautiful dream of a doomed lifestyle.
But be happy that you now are One Nation under God!

Thank you for your thoughts. As passionate as I am about the CW I must admit I do not like to think about what the world would turned into if the war was lost or won depending on your perspective.

 

[FarawayFriend]

I do agree. Probably one more country that lives from proud memories of the past while the present is much less glorious. As I said, your people, your nation, you all should be proud to be the "United States" again!

 

[kholland]

As much as I am in love with my romantic image of the Ante-bellum South: chivalrous gentlemen, Southern Belles, beautiful mansions... and a certain melancholic or maybe languishing mood... it could not have lasted. In the end everything is about money, and money was made in the industrialized regions of the North. The agricultural South could not have survived.
To me as a foreigner the South was a beautiful dream of a doomed lifestyle.
But be happy that you now are One Nation under God!

Well put, Andrea!

 

[FarawayFriend]

Thank you, Ken.
But I would also like to hear other opinions. Nothing is all good or all bad. What good might have come from two "Americas"? Any suggestions? Just as a play of thoughts to occupy the mind on a lazy Sunday morning? I know it is hard to think of anything as in your country there is room for every lifestyle. I have even seen a docu about a kind of girl's college in the South where every day starts with "Dixie". They have a huge waiting list with girls from the entire USA waiting to attend. That must be more than nostalgia. What is it?

 

[FarawayFriend]

I was just reminded again of this thread ... because I just found this:

"Winning the war was clearly a higher priority for the Confederacy than conquering Latin America, but growth was certainly on the post-war agenda. Confederate president Jefferson Davis made sure the Confederate constitution included the right to expand, and he filled his cabinet with men who thought similarly. He even hinted that the slave trade could be revived in "new acquisitions to be made south of the Rio Grande."
During the Civil War, Confederate agents attempted to destabilize Mexico so that its territories would be easy to snatch up after the war. One rebel emissary to Mexico City, John T. Pickett, secretly fomented rebellion in several Mexican provinces with an eye to "the permanent possession of that beautiful country." Pickett's mission ended in failure in 1861, but fate dealt the South a better hand in 1863. French Emperor Napoleon III seized Mexico, and the move provided the South with a perfect excuse to "liberate" the country after the Civil War.
Of course, Mexico was just part of the pie that the South hoped to inherit. Confederate leaders also had their eyes squarely on Brazil—a country of nearly 4 million square miles and more than 8 million people. Prior to the outbreak of the war, U.S. Naval Academy founder Matthew Maury dispatched two Navy officers to the Amazon basin, ostensibly to map the river for shipping. Instead, they were secretly plotting domination and collecting data about separatist movements in the region. When the South lost the war, Maury refused to abandon his plans. He helped 20,000 ex-rebels flee to Brazil, where they established the Confederate colonies of New Texas and Americana. To this day, hundreds of descendents of the Confederados still gather outside Americana to celebrate their shared heritage of rocking chairs and sweet potato pie. In a strange way, a part of the Old South still survives—thousands of miles below the U.S. border."
http://mentalfloss.com/article/19105/confederacys-plan-conquer-latin-america

So, had the Confederacy gained her independence and succeeded in expanding, what would that have meant?
I'm with @War Horse and think that sooner or later both "Americas" would have become reunited again, but do you think that these new USA would maybe then even have incorporated Latin America? Would a temporary secession with respective different expansion of both parts, North and South, finally have lead to even larger United States today? With the North maybe expanding more to the West and the South expanding further south?

 

[TinCan]

I agree with faraway friend. Money, would have put an end to the Confederacy. As soon as the North invented newer tools to harvest and ship products to market the South would have found itself unable to keep up and would have died on the vine.

 

[southern blue]

My family probably would have immigrated or have been run out of town....

 

[kepi]

Sitting here on a Saturday morning without much to do (Finally) I couldn't help but ponder what if the South's bid for independence would have been successful? The liberty's and freedom we enjoy today were certainly paid for with the blood of both our northern and southern ancestors fighting together as brothers. Had the Confederacy been successful and achieved independence how would that have effected the way we live today. One can only wonder, I think it would have effected everything. Western expansion was only in its infancy at the time. North and South would have been biding for each territory which means the fighting would have continued. Native Americans would have been recruited as allies for one if not both countries. The great world conflicts of the future would have certainly been different. Would the Union and Confederacy have allied or would they have opposed each other?
I for one think that the crises to come would have reunited us into one country again but maybe not. I know it's silly pondering fiction, but what if?

I don't think we ( United States today) would have landed a man on the moon.

 

[John Hartwell]

I, on the other hand, think there would be very little difference today. The CSA is unlikely to have survived the 19th century. Too much potential for conflict between and within the states, growing unrest among the poor white underclass (money was every bit as much the basis of power in the Plantation South as in the North, and wealth was much more concentrated in a smaller number of families), the ever-present, growing, and increasingly restive slave population -- all of which the USA (and its Abolitionists, now free from Constitutional restrictions) would have been only too happy to exploit. Add to this inevitable increase in 'international' friction as the CSA pursues its imperative to expand -- bringing on conflict with the USA, Mexico, Spain (over Caribbean colonies) and many other countries. The CSA, as it was constituted (socially and economically) was a dinosaur that could not have long survived in the 19th century world. Another bloody war (perhaps two) would have ensued, the country would have been re-united well before WWI, and the 20th century played out much as it actually has.

As for the "romantic image of the Ante-bellum South: chivalrous gentlemen, Southern Belles, beautiful mansions... and a certain melancholic or maybe languishing mood..." it was a fairy-tale life, enjoyed by a very, very few, at the expense of millions of black and poor white southerners.

 

[FarawayFriend]

As for the "romantic image of the Ante-bellum South: chivalrous gentlemen, Southern Belles, beautiful mansions... and a certain melancholic or maybe languishing mood..." it was a fairy-tale life, enjoyed by a very, very few, at the expense of millions of black and poor white southerners.

Yes John, I know. As I said, it was a romantic dream - which as you said came only true for the precious few. And had I lived then and there, I sure would not have lived in one of these great mansions, but probably overworked in a hut with 10+ children or maybe as a teacher, depending on the goodwill of my employers ... but it is the nature of dreams to have nothing to do with reality!

 

[War Horse]

I, on the other hand, think there would be very little difference today. The CSA is unlikely to have survived the 19th century. Too much potential for conflict between and within the states, growing unrest among the poor white underclass (money was every bit as much the basis of power in the Plantation South as in the North, and wealth was much more concentrated in a smaller number of families), the ever-present, growing, and increasingly restive slave population -- all of which the USA (and its Abolitionists, now free from Constitutional restrictions) would have been only too happy to exploit. Add to this inevitable increase in 'international' friction as the CSA pursues its imperative to expand -- bringing on conflict with the USA, Mexico, Spain (over Caribbean colonies) and many other countries. The CSA, as it was constituted (socially and economically) was a dinosaur that could not have long survived in the 19th century world. Another bloody war (perhaps two) would have ensued, the country would have been re-united well before WWI, and the 20th century played out much as it actually has.

As for the "romantic image of the Ante-bellum South: chivalrous gentlemen, Southern Belles, beautiful mansions... and a certain melancholic or maybe languishing mood..." it was a fairy-tale life, enjoyed by a very, very few, at the expense of millions of black and poor white southerners.

Many good points in your post sir, I never considered expansion into foreign country's.

 

[kepi]

I, on the other hand, think there would be very little difference today. The CSA is unlikely to have survived the 19th century. Too much potential for conflict between and within the states, growing unrest among the poor white underclass (money was every bit as much the basis of power in the Plantation South as in the North, and wealth was much more concentrated in a smaller number of families), the ever-present, growing, and increasingly restive slave population -- all of which the USA (and its Abolitionists, now free from Constitutional restrictions) would have been only too happy to exploit. Add to this inevitable increase in 'international' friction as the CSA pursues its imperative to expand -- bringing on conflict with the USA, Mexico, Spain (over Caribbean colonies) and many other countries. The CSA, as it was constituted (socially and economically) was a dinosaur that could not have long survived in the 19th century world. Another bloody war (perhaps two) would have ensued, the country would have been re-united well before WWI, and the 20th century played out much as it actually has.

As for the "romantic image of the Ante-bellum South: chivalrous gentlemen, Southern Belles, beautiful mansions... and a certain melancholic or maybe languishing mood..." it was a fairy-tale life, enjoyed by a very, very few, at the expense of millions of black and poor white southerners.

Do you see any parallels with South Africa?

 

[FarawayFriend]

Do you see any parallels with South Africa?

Are you referring to Apartheid? Please explain a bit - or is it modern politics?

 

[kepi]

Yes John, I know. As I said, it was a romantic dream - which as you said came only true for the precious few. And had I lived then and there, I sure would not have lived in one of these great mansions, but probably overworked in a hut with 10+ children or maybe as a teacher, depending on the goodwill of my employers ... but it is the nature of dreams to have nothing to do with reality!

Drawing on the current economic situation in Mississippi, my home state gets about $3.00 in tax revenue from the federal government for every dollar paid in taxes, so there is a good basis for your conclusion. If you factor in the reluctance of state government to adopt federal programs and even support free public education, things may have been even bleaker for you.

 

[kepi]

Are you referring to Apartheid? Please explain a bit - or is it modern politics?

I am referring to both apartide and the economic sanctions placed on South Africa.

 

[kepi]

Sitting here on a Saturday morning without much to do (Finally) I couldn't help but ponder what if the South's bid for independence would have been successful? The liberty's and freedom we enjoy today were certainly paid for with the blood of both our northern and southern ancestors fighting together as brothers. Had the Confederacy been successful and achieved independence how would that have effected the way we live today. One can only wonder, I think it would have effected everything. Western expansion was only in its infancy at the time. North and South would have been biding for each territory which means the fighting would have continued. Native Americans would have been recruited as allies for one if not both countries. The great world conflicts of the future would have certainly been different. Would the Union and Confederacy have allied or would they have opposed each other?
I for one think that the crises to come would have reunited us into one country again but maybe not. I know it's silly pondering fiction, but what if?

Here is something I found you might enjoy reading:
http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America_(Axis_World)

 

[yellowthornoftexas]

I don't think it would have lasted either. My poor white farming ancestors would still be dirt poor scraping a living out of the earth. But, I'm like minded as War Horse...I don't ponder on the 'what if's'. The North won, the South lost,I've fought and bled for my country, and, no matter what [..edited inflamatory content..] say, IT IS "One Nation under GOD".
Semper Fi

edited by ami

 

[War Horse]

removed quoted as quote was edited
And your service is VERY MUCH APPRICATED!