Grant Not impressed with Grants performance

[wausaubob]

Grant's victory: Something new in history: instead of the victory creating a new class of slaves, it gave factual slavery to the remaining black slaves in the South.
The Romans would have disapproved. They would have told Grant that he supposed to enslave the vanquished and require the concurred to surrender their kingdoms to the Roman Republic.
You have it all wrong, Ulysses, they would have told him.
But Grant would have said, go back further. The Army of the Potomac is my Scythian bow.

 

[contestedground]

Have you bothered to actually read that post or is real historical evidence too upsetting?

Trigger warning for Confederate snowflakes.

 

[CSA Today]

Leftyhunter said: Have your read @cash post #320? @cash showed that Wheelers men committed more damage to civilians then did Sherman's men.

Seriously, 3,000 men doing more damage that over 60,000? So much for someone's fantastical ideas of "factual history".

 

[wausaubob]

Snowflake: a reference to the complex Missouri approach to popular sovereignty.
It was a bad solution but infinitely preferable to Civil War.

 

[contestedground]

Seriously, 3,000 men doing more damage that over 60,000? So much for someone's fantastical ideas of "factual history".

Again, if y'all are going to make this claim, give me who made it and where. Otherwise y'all are just inventing strawmen.

 

[contestedground]

Snowflake: a reference to the complex Missouri approach to popular sovereignty.
It was a bad solution but infinitely preferable to Civil War.

Not according to Nathaniel Lyon. But he never made it to that winter.

 

[contestedground]

I don't think she said anyone was named Facts.

For some people Facts might be good for a Fling, but Myth ...there's a long-term relationship!

 

[contestedground]

I can't speak for them all, but Wheeler's 5th Tennessee Cavalry was certainly welcome here on the morning of 8 March 1865.

I'm sure the people of Georgia felt that way, too ... anywhere but in their own home state!

 

[contestedground]

Leftyhunter said: Have your read @cash post #320? @cash showed that Wheelers men committed more damage to civilians then did Sherman's men.

A post? That's it? In fact, someone's description of a post?

And to think some folks here denigrate blogs as a source of information ...

Guess y'all can't cite a single historian who has offered that argument. Thank ye for that.

 

[O' Be Joyful]

Trigger warning for Confederate snowflakes.

I've already referenced Davis' Macon Speech.

 

[CSA Today]

Again, if y'all are going to make this claim, give me who made it and where. Otherwise y'all are just inventing strawmen.

Why is this addressed to me? I never made so preposterous a claim/

 

[Rebforever]

Not that his

It would have nothing to do with his men starving and deserting by the thousands
would it?
Leftyhunter

I guess al those that deserted from the Union Arm just picked the right time.

 

[contestedground]

Sherman should have been a confederate general, then, like Wheeler, bad things done by troops under his command would be blamed on some Union general.

"By the end of the campaign Wheeler's cavalry was regarded by most Georgians who had made its acquaintance as more rapacious and destructive than the Yankees." [Lee Kennett, Marching Through Georgia: The Story of Soldiers & Civilians During Sherman's Campaign, p. 278]

"At least Madison's residents did not have to deal with Wheeler's men, a privilege denied those farther south. Writing to Jefferson Davis about a month after the events took place, a Griffin resident named P. A. Lawson explained, 'When General Sherman left Atlanta Wheeler's cavalry commenced their retreat before him, and but a handful of Sherman's men ran W[heeler's] whole command down to Griffin, and while S[herman's] army was marching through Fayette, Clayton, Henry, and Butts [counties], Wheeler's cavalry was burning up all the corn and fodder, driving off all the stock of the farmers for ten miles on each side of the railroad, all of from ten to twenty-five miles to the right and rear of Sherman's forces. Worse than all, the stock of mules and horses which General Wheeler's forces carried off, nine out of ten they have appropriated to their own use.' " [Noah Andre Trudeau, Southern Storm: Sherman's March to the Sea, pp. 112-113] At the town of Jackson, Georgia, "The first Federals to enter the town found the courthouse already smoldering, courtesy of Wheeler's departing cavalry." [Ibid., p. 115]

The sources for comparing the destruction wrought by Sherman's men and Wheeler's men? White southerners from Georgia, it seems. People who were there.

"Although three of Sherman's four corps crossed Screven County, residents reported that the resulting destruction was slight. … A Confederate colonel who was home on leave reported that only four or five houses were burned in all of Screven County. The Yankees had targeted certain homeowners–a man who hunted escaped union prisoners with bloodhounds, another who barricaded roads in the army's advance, and a foolhardy fellow who shot the first soldiers to approach his house. Sherman's men left the county's inhabitants with enough provisions to tide them over, the colonel maintained, had they not subsequently been overrun by Joseph Wheeler's Confederate cavalry. Wheeler lacked a supply system of his own and, like Sherman, depended on the land for sustenance. To the rebel colonel, Wheeler's men were worse than the Yankees; they 'filled the whole country with terror.' An unidentified refugee in Screven County commented on the depredations of Wheeler's cavalry in a letter to the Countryman. Widely reputed to be 'the greatest horse thieves in the country,' Wheeler's men 'never acted worse than they have recently.' While the Yankees were burning and destroying property in one part of the county, the writer alleged, Wheeler's troopers were stealing horses and mules in another. Remarking on this letter, Joseph Turner wrote, 'The whole land mourns, on account of Wheeler's cavalry. Here in middle Georgia, they are dreaded fully as much, if not more, than the yankees [sic].' " [Ibid., pp. 81-82]

More testimony from white Southerners who were there, including a real Confederate colonel.

Are folks telling me that white southerners are liars? That Confederate officers are liars?

May I remind you that this is Confederate History Month, when we are supposed to honor and revere all thngs Confederate? How dare those posters fond of the Confederate cause denigrate the testimony of true Southrons!

How disrespectful!

 

[contestedground]

Why is this addressed to me? I never made so preposterous a claim/

I'll type slowly so you'll understand. Tell me who did make this claim with which you find so much to be wrong.

Y'all seem skeered when it comes to requests that you back up your claims with actual evidence. I don't think you're so stupid as not to understand the request.

 

[Rebforever]

Thank you for the well thought out and exhaustively researched reply. Your continued well thought out and exhaustive contributions are noted for the value added to the conversation. Let me be one of many who extend my heartfelt thanks; I feel so honored that you graced the readership with the admission that you noted a post; it goes a long way in boosting your thread count and apparent contribution to the subject. After all some believe numbers boost credibility; Stalin did say quantity has a quality all of its own.

Easy to read, no spin!

 

[CSA Today]

A post? That's it? In fact, someone's description of a post?

And to think some folks here denigrate blogs as a source of information ...

Guess y'all can't cite a single historian who has offered that argument. Thank ye for that.

Can you cite a historian (no blog-meisters) saying Wheeler's small division did more damage that Sherman's army?

 

[Bee]

Have to watch. We will get blogged over the head!!!

You are off the hook for the next week: I am in a remote setting with limited bandwidth and zero resources..And most of it is being used to stream hockey games

 

[CSA Today]

I'll type slowly so you'll understand. Tell me who did make this claim with which you find so much to be wrong.

Y'all seem skeered when it comes to requests that you back up your claims with actual evidence. I don't think you're so stupid as not to understand the request.

I'm starting to lose track of what you are talking about. I don't think the Southern side is saying Wheeler's men did more damage than Sherman's. If the other side is saying it, asked them.

 

[Rebforever]

You are off the hook for the next week: I am in a remote setting with limited bandwidth and zero resources..And most of it is being used to stream hockey games

That is much better than reading biased blogs.

 

[KansasFreestater]

Dang, you are good, Wausau Bob!! I've read a good twenty books about Grant and yet I didn't pick up on some of the stuff you mention here. Either I've been reading the wrong books, or have a bad memory, or you just have one darn good military mind.

To get to Petersburg Grant had to have the confidence of Lincoln and Stanton.
He used McClellan's strategy, while taking advantage of what George Meade told Grant that McClellan had to deal with during the 7 days, and added his own unique water transport knowledge to the move.

Of course! Meade had been there in the AoP all along, and knew that territory pretty dang well. Yes, they must have had very intense discussions. I've been chalking up the James River crossing to Grant's brilliance, but it was probably at least as much Meade's plan. Here I am, doing the same thing I have often accused others of doing: forgetting about poor Meade! Truly "the Rodney Dangerfield of Civil War generals -- he gets no respect!"

And good point about Grant having the confidence of both Lincoln and Stanton. That was no small thing!! Forgot to include it in my list earlier. Thanks for reminding us.

Meade's experience was very important, and here is another of Grant's preferences. He got help from as many people as possible.

Absolutely. I forgot to include that in my list earlier, too. Grant was famous for -- unlike some generals -- really listening to everyone. He was also famous for ultimately making his own decision anyway -- witness the Vicksburg campaign, where he went against Sherman's very strong opinion (did Sherman have any other kind?) -- but Grant did seek and really listen to everyone's counsel.

The number of wagons, horses and mules required fell rapidly. There were no wagon trains or railroads for the Conf. cavalry to raid.

Very true!