Grant Not impressed with Grants performance

What does it say for the CS that they couldn't do a thing to slow down those "looters & vandals?"

Let's tell the truth here. The CS slowed down US armies, even stopped them or drove them back for close to four years. How about that Union army, running for their lives after Manassas? Twice.

I wonder if a Confederate army had gone on the rampage in Philadelphia or Washington DC if you'd be decrying the inability of the Union army to stop them?

What does it say for your idols that their hopes & dreams were dashed by those 60k "looters & vandals" walking unopposed through their backyard?

What does it say about the character of the average soldier in Sherman's army when arson was their favorite pasttime? When going into houses, ripping up clothes and mattresses to get at hidden valuables was a common occurrence? Such a worthwhile military activity! Stealing a family's food supplies and leaving them near starvation in the middle of winter. What a noble example of manhood and military prowess! Or rather, nothing to be proud of, and a sorry chapter in the annals of US military history. The fact that people defend it, and are even proud of it, is very telling.
 
Let's tell the truth here. The CS slowed down US armies, even stopped them or drove them back for close to four years. How about that Union army, running for their lives after Manassas? Twice.

I wonder if a Confederate army had gone on the rampage in Philadelphia or Washington DC if you'd be decrying the inability of the Union army to stop them?



What does it say about the character of the average soldier in Sherman's army when arson was their favorite pasttime? When going into houses, ripping up clothes and mattresses to get at hidden valuables was a common occurrence? Such a worthwhile military activity! Stealing a family's food supplies and leaving them near starvation in the middle of winter. What a noble example of manhood and military prowess! Or rather, nothing to be proud of, and a sorry chapter in the annals of US military history. The fact that people defend it, and are even proud of it, is very telling.
I prefer history to the hate and anti US propaganda you are so fond of.
 
Blame the victims.
The victims were not making the decision to continue to fight.
By November and December of 1864 the ordinary people of the South were in control of one party system whose appointed president ran unopposed in 1861 and never ran for election after that.
Go back to the county by county 1860 election map.
By late 1864 there were a lot of people in the South, most of the women or older men, that knew their husbands had voted for Douglas and Bell for good reasons.
Alexander Stephens, a Douglas Democrat, and Sam Houston, come to mind.
 
Fighting for the confederacy. It would automatically make him a genius.
But as someone who became a Republican, he would be condemned to a life of suffering, inflicted by the Lost Cause zealots....
 
Grant's record speaks for itself, but Omar Bradley?
I am not familiar enough with Bradley to add him to this elite group. I've always thought of him to Ike as Meade to Grant. Can someone make the argument for him?
 
What does it say for the CS that they couldn't do a thing to slow down those "looters & vandals?"

What does it say for your idols that their hopes & dreams were dashed by those 60k "looters & vandals" walking unopposed through their backyard?

Put simply the men stood up pulled themselves up and went on with their lives becoming good citizens. The rest authored the Lost Cause you idolize.

Grant figured out how to forge those "looters & vandals" into an army the cream of the slaveocracy couldn't even slow down. How humiliating it must be for them to have been crushed by such "looters & vandals." It's a good thing actual history shows they were beat by real men.

He may have figured they were better looters than fighters.
 
Blame the victims.

Nah, let us put the blame where it belongs. It was Jeff Davis that allowed Hood and the AoT to go north to its destruction and left Georgia practically helpless. In addition to being a deficient commander in chief he was also a lousy prognosticator of the weather, expecting the well known heavy snows of the Georgian tundra to cripple Sherman and his vandals.


What, though misfortune has befallen our arms from Decatur to Jonesboro, our cause is not lost. Sherman cannot keep up his long line of communication, and retreat sooner or later, he must. And when that day comes, the fate that befel the army of the French Empire and its retreat from Moscow will be reacted. Our cavalry and our people will harass and destroy his army as did the Cossacks that of Napoleon, and the Yankee General, like him will escape with only a body guard.

http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/...-georgia-september-23-1864-worst-speech-ever/
Davis left the door to the sea wide open, all Uncle Billy had to do was walk through. Where was the army?--
is what Georgia was frantically asking at the time. It wasn't until later, after Davis wrote his excus... er book that everything was laid on Sherman to cover his own failure(s).


 
Let's tell the truth here. The CS slowed down US armies, even stopped them or drove them back for close to four years. How about that Union army, running for their lives after Manassas? Twice.

I wonder if a Confederate army had gone on the rampage in Philadelphia or Washington DC if you'd be decrying the inability of the Union army to stop them?



What does it say about the character of the average soldier in Sherman's army when arson was their favorite pasttime? When going into houses, ripping up clothes and mattresses to get at hidden valuables was a common occurrence? Such a worthwhile military activity! Stealing a family's food supplies and leaving them near starvation in the middle of winter. What a noble example of manhood and military prowess! Or rather, nothing to be proud of, and a sorry chapter in the annals of US military history. The fact that people defend it, and are even proud of it, is very telling.
"I will answer that War is War, and not popularity-seeking."
 
Let's tell the truth here. The CS slowed down US armies, even stopped them or drove them back for close to four years. How about that Union army, running for their lives after Manassas? Twice.

I wonder if a Confederate army had gone on the rampage in Philadelphia or Washington DC if you'd be decrying the inability of the Union army to stop them?
One can only guess. Although Confederate officers attempted to pay (in useless Confederate scrip) for materials confiscated or damage done, there was still looting by some Rebels in Pennsylvania during the Gettysburg campaign.
As far as armies "running for their lives", there was bravery and cowardice on both sides, just as both sides enjoyed victories and defeats.
It would be unfair for us to assume that either army was more or less brave than the other.

What does it say about the character of the average soldier in Sherman's army when arson was their favorite pasttime? When going into houses, ripping up clothes and mattresses to get at hidden valuables was a common occurrence? Such a worthwhile military activity! Stealing a family's food supplies and leaving them near starvation in the middle of winter. What a noble example of manhood and military prowess! Or rather, nothing to be proud of, and a sorry chapter in the annals of US military history. The fact that people defend it, and are even proud of it, is very telling.

The "average soldier in Sherman's army" did not engage in looting or other dishonorable activity any more than the average Confederate soldier. In cases where soldiers were involved in such activity, it was the outliers, not the average soldier.
Did Sherman's march to the sea and through the Carolinas have a harsh affect on the local populace? Yes. Did Sherman take steps to mitigate civilian death, injury or suffering and damage to private property? Yes.
But let's be clear: Sherman's efforts had the desired effect of shortening the war and saving lives on both sides. Fear of his army's approach or stories of their passing caused fearful wives and parents to write their husbands and sons, begging them to come home, causing many to lay down their weapons and walk away from what for many would have been certain death.
Looking back, it is difficult to see how this unnecessary war which had become so grim, with so many lost and ruined lives, could have been ended any other, better way.
 
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I've come to the conclusion that besides a couple of small time battles along the Cumberland against subpar leadership and accepting the surrender of Lee, Grant was an unimpressive tactical general.
Enjoy your study of this fascinating event in our history.
I applaud your skepticism.
It is generally agreed that Lee was a better "tactical general" (maybe the best in that conflict) while Grant was the best 'strategic general'.
 
Let's tell the truth here.

Please do.


The CS slowed down US armies, even stopped them or drove them back for close to four years.

They didn't slow down US armies in the West. I thought we were telling the truth?

How about that Union army, running for their lives after Manassas? Twice.

How about the Army of Northern Virginia putting their tail between their legs and heading back to Virginia after trying to move north? Twice.

I wonder if a Confederate army had gone on the rampage in Philadelphia or Washington DC if you'd be decrying the inability of the Union army to stop them?

They were stopped each time they tried to come north.

What does it say about the character of the average soldier in Sherman's army when arson was their favorite pasttime? When going into houses, ripping up clothes and mattresses to get at hidden valuables was a common occurrence? Such a worthwhile military activity! Stealing a family's food supplies and leaving them near starvation in the middle of winter. What a noble example of manhood and military prowess! Or rather, nothing to be proud of, and a sorry chapter in the annals of US military history. The fact that people defend it, and are even proud of it, is very telling.

I thought you said you wanted to tell the truth. When will you start? Certainly not with this flagrant falsehood. Seems there are those who wish to convey myth instead of truth.

http://78ohio.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/The_Mythology_of_-Shermans_-March.pdf
 
Where was Hood's army? It was in Franklin making pointless attacks on the Union's prepared positions, in a battle far away from the line of Sherman's march, in a battle that could not affected anything.
Then it sat at Nashville until George Thomas gave up hoping they would just go away, and Thomas' carbine equipped cavalry whipped them in the worst whipping any force received in the entire war.
So why was there any fighting at all at that point?
What was achieved other than Jefferson Davis never had to admit the South was defeated?
 
I prefer history to the hate and anti US propaganda you are so fond of.

Then you should learn US history and not US mythology. I'm used to being proud of the United States military, and I don't enjoy seeing them act like nothing more than thugs and vandals when they marched through the south during the Civil War.
 
Then you should learn US history and not US mythology. I'm used to being proud of the United States military, and I don't enjoy seeing them act like nothing more than thugs and vandals when they marched through the south during the Civil War.

Is Lawrence Kansas an example of what makes you proud? Should Sherman have just lynched folks a dozen at time as the Confederates did in Gainesville TX?

Should he have acted like your heroes and done this:

"Major Farnan, commanding the cavalry, reports that the scenes
witnessed by him in marching from Lake Providence to Goodrichs
Landing were of a character never before witnessed in a civilized coun-
try, and the rebel atrocities committed the day before were such as the
pen fails to record in proper language. They spared neither age, sex,
nor condition. In some instances the negroes were shut up in their
quarters, and literally roasted alive. The charred remains found in
numerous instances testified to a degree of fiendish atrocity such as has
no parallel either in civilized or savage warfare. Young children, only
five or six years of age, were found skulking in the canebreak pierced
with wounds, while helpless women were found shot down in the most
inhuman manner. The whole country was destroyed, and every sign
of civilization was given to the flames
."

SAMJEL J. NASMITH,
Licut. Col. Twenty fifth Wisconsin Infantry, Comdg. Expedition.

July 1, 1863
OR XXIV part 2 page 517
 
Then you should learn US history and not US mythology. I'm used to being proud of the United States military, and I don't enjoy seeing them act like nothing more than thugs and vandals when they marched through the south during the Civil War.
I study history and quite a bit of it is more than US history. The Civil War did not take place in a vacuum and history did not begin and end in the American south. Contrary to your fantasies the US soldier is not so evil as you wish others to believe. You are fond of slandering the US soldier but are careful to make certain they are dead. I expect you would never call one of those men such to their face.
 
No, Sherman should have followed Jefferson Davis' example from Tennessee and hung captured Confederates four at a time.
Four hangings per bridge will get them every time!

Sherman should have been a confederate general, then, like Wheeler, bad things done by troops under his command would be blamed on some Union general.

"By the end of the campaign Wheeler's cavalry was regarded by most Georgians who had made its acquaintance as more rapacious and destructive than the Yankees." [Lee Kennett, Marching Through Georgia: The Story of Soldiers & Civilians During Sherman's Campaign, p. 278]

"At least Madison's residents did not have to deal with Wheeler's men, a privilege denied those farther south. Writing to Jefferson Davis about a month after the events took place, a Griffin resident named P. A. Lawson explained, 'When General Sherman left Atlanta Wheeler's cavalry commenced their retreat before him, and but a handful of Sherman's men ran W[heeler's] whole command down to Griffin, and while S[herman's] army was marching through Fayette, Clayton, Henry, and Butts [counties], Wheeler's cavalry was burning up all the corn and fodder, driving off all the stock of the farmers for ten miles on each side of the railroad, all of from ten to twenty-five miles to the right and rear of Sherman's forces. Worse than all, the stock of mules and horses which General Wheeler's forces carried off, nine out of ten they have appropriated to their own use.' " [Noah Andre Trudeau, Southern Storm: Sherman's March to the Sea, pp. 112-113] At the town of Jackson, Georgia, "The first Federals to enter the town found the courthouse already smoldering, courtesy of Wheeler's departing cavalry." [Ibid., p. 115]

"Nurtured by this mythology, legends of Sherman's marches have spread like kudzu in the South. For fourteen years, University of Georgia folklorist Elissa R. Henken collected, analyzed, and categorized such legends from throughout the state. Aware that Sherman was considered a fiend incarnate whose army razed not only Georgia and the Carolinas but much of the South as well, Henken was surprised to find that legends detailing destruction were paradoxically outnumbered by 'stories about the places that Sherman did not destroy.' The tales revealed several motifs. Towns were reportedly spared because Sherman had a girlfriend living there during his antebellum stay in the South, or because of a Masonic tie between the general and a resident (despite the fact that Sherman was not a Mason), or because he found the place simply too beautiful to destroy. Many of the legends thrive in towns that Sherman never passed through. Henken considers them expressions of Lost Cause pride in which the ogre Sherman is tamed by the influence of southern civilization, most often by genteel but tough and wily women. In addition to preservation legends regarding towns, Henken recorded family legends about the saving of a single house or property. These tales also generally feature women, determined and fierce 'steel magnolias' who outwit, tame, or defeat Sherman and his men through cunning, defiance, or violence. Candid Southerners have acknowledged the unreliability of these legends. The inhabitants of Screven County, Georgia (through which the 154th New York passed), believed so strongly that the Yankees ransacked and burned every house, historian Dixon Hollingsworth wrote, 'that each family seemed to be compelled in later years to devise some explanation as to why its home was spared.' But Sherman's men did not wantonly burn houses, Hollingsworth observed, and usually left enough provisions on a farm to support a family for a few days. 'In fact they marched by hundreds of Screven County homes without even infringing on the privacy of the families.' " [Mark H. Dunkelman,Marching With Sherman: Through Georgia and the Carolinas with the 154th New York, pp. 11-12]

"Although three of Sherman's four corps crossed Screven County, residents reported that the resulting destruction was slight. … A Confederate colonel who was home on leave reported that only four or five houses were burned in all of Screven County. The Yankees had targeted certain homeowners–a man who hunted escaped union prisoners with bloodhounds, another who barricaded roads in the army's advance, and a foolhardy fellow who shot the first soldiers to approach his house. Sherman's men left the county's inhabitants with enough provisions to tide them over, the colonel maintained, had they not subsequently been overrun by Joseph Wheeler's Confederate cavalry. Wheeler lacked a supply system of his own and, like Sherman, depended on the land for sustenance. To the rebel colonel, Wheeler's men were worse than the Yankees; they 'filled the whole country with terror.' An unidentified refugee in Screven County commented on the depredations of Wheeler's cavalry in a letter to the Countryman. Widely reputed to be 'the greatest horse thieves in the country,' Wheeler's men 'never acted worse than they have recently.' While the Yankees were burning and destroying property in one part of the county, the writer alleged, Wheeler's troopers were stealing horses and mules in another. Remarking on this letter, Joseph Turner wrote, 'The whole land mourns, on account of Wheeler's cavalry. Here in middle Georgia, they are dreaded fully as much, if not more, than the yankees [sic].' " [Ibid., pp. 81-82]

"I am pretty sure Sherman should not be considered the 'bete noire' of Southern history, much less saluted as 'the Attila of the West,' the title H.L. Mencken accorded him. Much of Sherman's violence was verbal. He habitually used language that was vivid, emphatic and that tended toward exaggeration. Even E. Merton Coulter, the dean of Georgia historians a half-century ago, conceded that the general made many threats he did not carry out.

"Thus he told his subordinates in North Georgia that the way to keep trains from being blown up was to fill the cars wil local civilians and Confederate prisoners and then pull them 'by means of a long rope' across places where explosive charges were suspected. 'Of course the enemy can not complain of his own traps,' he reasoned. But my research produced no evidence that the scheme was ever carried out. Nor did he deport Southern hotheads and die-hards who fell into his hands to places like Honduras and Madagascar, a proposal actually approved by Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton.

In fact, Sherman fought the war in Georgia pretty much by the book.

According to the British legal authority J.M. Spaight, he violated the rules of war only once in the Atlanta campaign: when he failed to give a 24-hour warning before bombarding the city on July 20, 1864."

[Lee Kennett, "General Sherman burned by history? Man that South loves to hate may not have been so bad," The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, August 31, 2001]

"There is a persistent tradition that Sherman's troops burned vast numbers of rural homes--'thousands' was the word used by Chaplain Bradley--and in the decades after the war any chimneys standing alone about the Georgia countryside got the lugubrious name 'Sherman's sentinels.' But what evidence there is indicates that only a minority of the houses along the army's path were fired by the Northern soldiers--probably a smaller proportion than during the evacuation of North Georgia. That is the impression to be gained from reading the more meticulous diarists; a house in the countryside going up in flames was noted. Henry Hitchcock was constantly on watch for them but did not note very many. Later studies of the areas the army passed through likewise show that the majority of the houses survived the holocaust of 1864. Using detailed maps prepared by one of Sherman's topographical engineers for the sixty-odd-mile stretch between Covington and Milledgeville, a geographer at the University of Georgia went back over the route in 1955 and discovered that many of the structures had survived not only Sherman's passage, but also accidental fires and termites, and were peacefully succumbing to dry rot. As for Milledgeville and the surrounding area, the author of another study found that 'the actual destruction of private dwellings ... was rare indeed, either in the town or along the route of march.'" [Lee Kennett, Marching Through Georgia: The Story of Soldiers & Civilians During Sherman's Campaign, pp. 275-276]
 

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