Grant "Never Mind the Guard"

Joined
Jan 24, 2017
"'After we had secured the opening of a line over which to bring our supplies to the army, I made a personal inspection to see the situation of the pickets of the two armies. As I have stated, Chattanooga Creek comes down the centre of the valley to within a mile or such a matter of the town of Chattanooga, then bears off westerly, the north-westerly, and enters the Tennessee River at the foot of Lookout Mountain. This creek, from its moouth up to where it bears off west, lay between the two lines of pickets, and the guards of both armies drew their water from the same stream. As I would be under short-range fire and in an open country, I took nobody with me, except, I believe, a bugler, who stayed some distance to the rear. I rode from our right around to our left. When I came to the camp of the picket guard of our side, I heard the call, 'Turn our the guard for the commanding general." I replied, "Never mind the guard", and they were dismissed and went back to their tents. Just back of these, and about equally distant from the creek, were the guards of the Confederate pickets. The sentinel on their post called out in like manner, "Turn out the guard for the commanding general", and, I believe, added, "General Grant". Their line in a moment front-faced to the north, facing me, and gave a salute, which I returned.

The most friendly relations seemed to exist between the pickets of the two armies. At one place there was a tree which had fallen across the stream, and which was used by the solider of both armies in drawing water for their camps. General Longstreet's corps was stationed there at the time, and wore blue of a little different shade from our uniform. Seeing a soldier in blue on this log, I rode up to him, commenced conversing with him , and asked whose corps he belonged to. He was very polite, and touching his hat to me, said he belonged to General Longstreet's corps. I asked him a few questions - but not with a view to gaining any particular information - all of which he answered, and I rode off."

The Complete Personal Memoirs of Ulysses S. Grant - pg. 211, 212

It always fascinates me, the ordinariness of some of the interactions in such extraordinary circumstances. Opposing sides met, yet harmony, not harm, was the order of the day. How did such moments come about? No doubt, the battle did not rage in these moments, but men found the wherewithall to put their differences aside - even if only for a moment.
 
A 'pot shot' at Ulysses S. Grant may have been quite timely in the circumstances, but instead the Confederates chose to salute him, and the other man to converse with him. Grant seems to indicate he was uncertain of the identity of the soldier sitting on the log, but being made cognizant of the man being one of Longstreet's men, he nevertheless chose to have a 'chat' with him. He also returned the salute of the Confederate soldiers. Grant being a commander made little difference to this ability to fraternize, and I think that's what interested me about this extract from his memoirs.
 
A couple of things were going on. The loss of Vicksburg had a severe psychological effect on the Confederates.
The generous terms offered to the Vicksburg parolees was well known at Chattanooga, because some of them were in Chattanooga.
By the time Grant was riding the pickets, the US troops were probably eating better than the Confederates and were not shy about letting the Confederates know that.
 
I think these incidents show Grant was there to do a job, one devoid of needless enmity towards his foe. I think he respected enemy combatants but was thoroughly dedicated to executing his duty as well. It is my suspicion that Grant would have been immensely satisfied if the soldiers, both sides, all just laid down their arms and went home. He showed universal respect for the common soldiers for their role in the war...

"The humblest soldier who carried a musket is entitled to as much credit for the results of the war as those who were in command." -US Grant

In one of his final letters written to Simon Buckner, former Confederate General, who visited him at Mt. McGregor shortly before his death Grant wrote:

"I have always contended that if there had been nobody left but the soldiers we would have had peace in a year."

A Confederate POW at Chattanooga recalled General Grant passing him and his fellow prisoners...

"When General Grant reached the line of ragged, bloody, starveling, despairing prisoners strung out on each side of the bridge he lifted his hat and held it over his head until he passed the last man of that living funeral cortege. He was the only officer...who recognized us as being on the face of the earth."

I have read numerous accounts of Grant being respectful and generous in regards to southern civilians and southern soldiers.

Grant always seemed to have a sense for the psychological battleground and the powerful effects of words and actions on his opponents mindset. At Vicksburg he used the psychological state of the enemy soldiers as a deciding factor in granting them parole. He believed that many wanted no more of the war and would not take up arms again. He also knew the psychological effects of more generous surrender terms on the mindset of the south.

At Vicksburg Grant defended his parole of the surrendered garrison there stating:

The men had behaved so well that I did not want to humiliate them. I believed that consideration for their feelings would make them less dangerous foes during the continuance of hostilities, and better citizens after the war was over.

Grant seemed to view the southern soldiers as errant citizens of the US. They had chosen the wrong path and it was his duty to bring them back. There was no deep hatred or sense of retribution (well maybe N.B. Forrest) behind his actions. Even in the midst of vigorously attacking the enemy he was able to hold a soldier's respect for their valor...

"As bad as it [the Confederate cause] is they have fought for it with a gallantry worthy of a better."
 
(well maybe N.B. Forrest)

????

Please elaborate.

I've never read any documents that reflect General Grant expressed a deep hatred of Forrest.
Granted . . . Forrest was a pain in the azz to both him and Sherman, but that was about it.

Forrest got on Sherman's nerves, a lot more than Grant's.

Grant had way too much to worry about than NBF.

BTW, great post @GrantCottage1885 !
I do invite you to visit the Forrest Forum.

There's some great stuff in there for anyone wishing to learn more about Forrest.
 
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I had been thinking about starting another thread on this, but since you boys brought it up:

Ulysses S. Grant on Nathan B. Forrest:

"While Sherman was waiting at Vicksburg for the arrival of Hurlbut with his surplus men, he sent out scouts to ascertain the position and strength of the enemy and to bring back all the information they could gather. When these scouts returned it was through them that he got the information of General Polk's being at Meridian and of the strength and disposition of his command.

Forrest had about 4,000 cavalry with him, composed of thoroughly well-disciplined men, who under so able a leader were very effective. Smith's command was nearly double that of Forrest, but not equal, man to man, for the lack of a successful experience such as Forrest's men had had. The fact is, troops who have fought a few battles and won, and follow up their victories, improve upon what they were before to an extent that can hardly be counted by percentage. The difference in result is often decisive victory instead of inglorious defeat. This same difference, too, is often due to the way troops are officered, and for the particular kind of warfare which Forrest had carried on another army could present a more effective officer than he was."


The Complete Personal Memoirs of Ulysses S. Grant Pg.233

Also

"On the 27th February, more than a month after Canby had received his orders, I again wrote to him, saying that I was extremely anxious to hear of his being in Alabama. I notified him, also, that I had sent Grierson to take command of his cavalry, he being a very efficient officer. I further suggested that Forrest was probably in Mississippi, and if he was there, he would find him an officer of great courage and capacity whom it would be difficult to get by. I still further informed him that Thomas had been ordered to start a cavalry force into Mississippi on the 20th February, or as soon as possible thereafter. This force did not get off however.

The Complete Personal Memoirs of Ulysses S. Grant - pg. 327

It seems Grant had an admiration for Forrest that I don't see him express for any other Confederate officer throughout his memoirs. As least, his admiration of Forrest certainly stood out for me. Which is why I originally marked the pages, and have now been able to return to them to add them to this post.

My own sense is that this admiration relates to Forrest's role in the cavalry.

Also, at one point Grant does apply criticism to Forrest with regard to the Fort Pillow incident, but I am having trouble locating that page, or I would have added it here, too. If I can find it, I will add it.
 
I posted this letter on a different thread some time ago. I think it's worthy of reposting here.

A.M. Arnold, Confederate Soldier
"Dear Sir:

I hope you will allow one who, when a boy, laid down his arms at Appomattox and pledged allegiance to the Union, to express his warmest sympathy for you in your suffering. I have watched your movements from the hour you gave me my horse and sword, and told me to 'go home and assist in making a crop.' I have been proud to see the nation do you honor, and now, dear General, in the hour of your pain, I weep that so brave, so magnanimous a soul must suffer as you do.

My prayer to God daily is that you may be restored to perfect health, and be assured that I am not the only ex-confederate who sends his prayers daily to the Throne of Grace for the restoration of the grandest, the noblest, the bravest soldier and the purest statesman who ever graced the annals of history. May the God who overlooked you in battle and who has brought you thus far give you grace to meet whatever He has in store for you, and may he restore you to health is the fervent prayer of one who, at fifteen years of age, entered the lists against you and accepted the magnanimous terms you accorded us at Appomattox."

A. M. Arnold, Rockbridge Baths, Virginia

This letter is widely quoted in books covering the last years of Grant's life. The earliest publication of it that I can find is in Military and Civil Life of Gen. Ulysses S. Grant, by James P. Boyd, copyright 1885.

It also appeared in The National Tribune (Washington, DC), July 9, 1885, p. 8, and in the

Richmond Dispatch, July 3, 1885.
 
I think these incidents show Grant was there to do a job, one devoid of needless enmity towards his foe. I think he respected enemy combatants but was thoroughly dedicated to executing his duty as well. It is my suspicion that Grant would have been immensely satisfied if the soldiers, both sides, all just laid down their arms and went home. He showed universal respect for the common soldiers for their role in the war...

"The humblest soldier who carried a musket is entitled to as much credit for the results of the war as those who were in command." -US Grant

In one of his final letters written to Simon Buckner, former Confederate General, who visited him at Mt. McGregor shortly before his death Grant wrote:

"I have always contended that if there had been nobody left but the soldiers we would have had peace in a year."

A Confederate POW at Chattanooga recalled General Grant passing him and his fellow prisoners...

"When General Grant reached the line of ragged, bloody, starveling, despairing prisoners strung out on each side of the bridge he lifted his hat and held it over his head until he passed the last man of that living funeral cortege. He was the only officer...who recognized us as being on the face of the earth."

I have read numerous accounts of Grant being respectful and generous in regards to southern civilians and southern soldiers.

Grant always seemed to have a sense for the psychological battleground and the powerful effects of words and actions on his opponents mindset. At Vicksburg he used the psychological state of the enemy soldiers as a deciding factor in granting them parole. He believed that many wanted no more of the war and would not take up arms again. He also knew the psychological effects of more generous surrender terms on the mindset of the south.

At Vicksburg Grant defended his parole of the surrendered garrison there stating:

The men had behaved so well that I did not want to humiliate them. I believed that consideration for their feelings would make them less dangerous foes during the continuance of hostilities, and better citizens after the war was over.

Grant seemed to view the southern soldiers as errant citizens of the US. They had chosen the wrong path and it was his duty to bring them back. There was no deep hatred or sense of retribution (well maybe N.B. Forrest) behind his actions. Even in the midst of vigorously attacking the enemy he was able to hold a soldier's respect for their valor...

"As bad as it [the Confederate cause] is they have fought for it with a gallantry worthy of a better."
Really appreciate you sharing these further extracts btw @GrantCottage1885 . Thanks.
 
I posted this letter on a different thread some time ago. I think it's worthy of reposting here.

A.M. Arnold, Confederate Soldier
"Dear Sir:

I hope you will allow one who, when a boy, laid down his arms at Appomattox and pledged allegiance to the Union, to express his warmest sympathy for you in your suffering. I have watched your movements from the hour you gave me my horse and sword, and told me to 'go home and assist in making a crop.' I have been proud to see the nation do you honor, and now, dear General, in the hour of your pain, I weep that so brave, so magnanimous a soul must suffer as you do.

My prayer to God daily is that you may be restored to perfect health, and be assured that I am not the only ex-confederate who sends his prayers daily to the Throne of Grace for the restoration of the grandest, the noblest, the bravest soldier and the purest statesman who ever graced the annals of history. May the God who overlooked you in battle and who has brought you thus far give you grace to meet whatever He has in store for you, and may he restore you to health is the fervent prayer of one who, at fifteen years of age, entered the lists against you and accepted the magnanimous terms you accorded us at Appomattox."

A. M. Arnold, Rockbridge Baths, Virginia

This letter is widely quoted in books covering the last years of Grant's life. The earliest publication of it that I can find is in Military and Civil Life of Gen. Ulysses S. Grant, by James P. Boyd, copyright 1885.

It also appeared in The National Tribune (Washington, DC), July 9, 1885, p. 8, and in the

Richmond Dispatch, July 3, 1885.
I may have read this when you posted it before @Dom71 , but I have to say, I have appreciated reading it again today. Thanks.
 
I had been thinking about starting another thread on this, but since you boys brought it up:

Ulysses S. Grant on Nathan B. Forrest:

This same difference, too, is often due to the way troops are officered, and for the particular kind of warfare which Forrest had carried on another army could present a more effective officer than he was."

The Complete Personal Memoirs of Ulysses S. Grant Pg.233

This appears to have been miscopied, or perhaps bollixed up by SpellCheck. As written, it suggests that another army could have presented a better officer. Looking it up in my copy, Grant is saying that neither army could have done so.

and for the particular kind of warfare which Forrest had carried on neither army could present a more effective officer than he was."
 
This appears to have been miscopied, or perhaps bollixed up by SpellCheck. As written, it suggests that another army could have presented a better officer. Looking it up in my copy, Grant is saying that neither army could have done so.

and for the particular kind of warfare which Forrest had carried on neither army could present a more effective officer than he was."
Thank you for clearing this up! I re-read my copy several times, and felt it wasn't accurate, but I wasn't going to edit the very words out of Ulysses S. Grant's mouth. At least what I thought were his words ...
 
????

Please elaborate.

I've never read any documents that reflect General Grant expressed a deep hatred of Forrest.
Granted . . . Forrest was a pain in the azz to both him and Sherman, but that was about it.

Forrest got on Sherman's nerves, a lot more than Grant's.

Grant had way too much to worry about than NBF.

BTW, great post @GrantCottage1885 !
I do invite you to visit the Forrest Forum.

There's some great stuff in there for anyone wishing to learn more about Forrest.

First off I'll readily admit that I am not a NB Forrest expert and the hatred part was a bit tongue in cheek. Forrest had a radical style and Grant was typically averse to radical behavior (such as guerrillas, the Fenians and the KKK).

In this passage from his memoirs Grant does not seem to cast Forrest in a overly positive light...

"Forrest...attacked the troops at Fort Pillow, a station for the protection of the navigation of the Mississippi River. The garrison consisted of a regiment of colored troops, infantry, and a detachment of Tennessee cavalry. These troops fought bravely, but were overpowered. I will leave Forrest in his dispatches to tell what he did with them. 'The river was dyed,' he says, 'with the blood of the slaughtered for two hundred yards. The approximate loss was upward of five hundred killed, but few of the officers escaping. My loss was about twenty killed. It is hoped that these facts will demonstrate to the Northern people that negro soldiers cannot cope with Southerners.' Subsequently Forrest made a report in which he left out the part which shocks humanity to read."

Grant wrote to Sherman in response to the Ft. Pillow massacre:

"If men have been murdered after capture retaliation must be resorted to promptly."

In Three Years with Grant Cadwalladar says that Grant respected the potential threat of Forrest mostly due to his unorthodoxy...

"If Forrest was in command he [Grant] at once became apprehensive because the latter was amenable to no known rules of procedure, was a law to himself for all military acts, and was constantly doing the unexpected, at all times and places..."

There are quotes that make it seem like Grant was in pure military admiration of Forrest, but on further inspection it seems like it was more of a healthy respect for the unpredictable dangerousness he posed.

Later Forrest and Grant would continue to be on opposing sides with Forrest as leader of the Klan and a political rival. Though Sherman stated he would have considered placing Forrest in command if the US went to war with Spain, it's difficult to say if Grant would have agreed.

Forrest would attempt to explain away his involvement in the Ft. Pillow massacre and also his involvement with the Klan. In the end I don't think it's as pivotal whether he personally ordered the massacre or personally ordered Klan violence it's more important to question the role he played in inspiring and supporting a climate conducive to such radical acts. Whether genuine sentiments reflecting a changed outlook or over-compensation, late in his life Forrest dis-avowed his involvement with the Klan and espoused racial harmony. His grandson NB Forrest II apparently would not carry on this new outlook on racial harmony, becoming a leader in the second iteration of the Klan in the early 20th century as a Grand Dragon.

Back on subject I found a couple more anecdotes about Grant to share, the following occurring during the battles for Ft. Donelson:

"Riding back to his farmhouse headquarters, Grant passed numerous dead and wounded from both armies. He saw a Union officer and a Confederate soldier, both severely wounded, lying side by side. The officer was trying, without much success, to give the Confederate a drink from his canteen. Grant dismounted and asked his staff officers if anyone had a flask. One was produced and Grant gave each man a swallow of brandy. 'Send for stretchers,' he called to Captain Rawlins. 'Send for stretchers at once for these two men.' As the aidmen came up, Grant remounted, only to notice the stretcher bearers ignored the Southern soldier. 'Take the Confederate too,' he ordered, 'the war is over between them.'"

Once Ft. Donelson had surrendered Grant was asked when the formal surrender ceremony would be, to which he replied:

"'There will be nothing of the kind,' said Grant. 'The surrender is now a fact. We have the fort, the men, the guns. Why should we go through vain forms and mortify and injure the spirit of the brave men, who, after all, are our own countrymen.'"

-Quotes from Grant by Jean Smith

The attitude displayed in these anectdotes is illustrative of a theme which would be echoed throughout the war by Grant at places like Vicksburg and most famously at Appomattox. A strong desire for reconciliation over retribution.
 
First off I'll readily admit that I am not a NB Forrest expert and the hatred part was a bit tongue in cheek. Forrest had a radical style and Grant was typically averse to radical behavior (such as guerrillas, the Fenians and the KKK).

In this passage from his memoirs Grant does not seem to cast Forrest in a overly positive light...

"Forrest...attacked the troops at Fort Pillow, a station for the protection of the navigation of the Mississippi River. The garrison consisted of a regiment of colored troops, infantry, and a detachment of Tennessee cavalry. These troops fought bravely, but were overpowered. I will leave Forrest in his dispatches to tell what he did with them. 'The river was dyed,' he says, 'with the blood of the slaughtered for two hundred yards. The approximate loss was upward of five hundred killed, but few of the officers escaping. My loss was about twenty killed. It is hoped that these facts will demonstrate to the Northern people that negro soldiers cannot cope with Southerners.' Subsequently Forrest made a report in which he left out the part which shocks humanity to read."

Grant wrote to Sherman in response to the Ft. Pillow massacre:

"If men have been murdered after capture retaliation must be resorted to promptly."

In Three Years with Grant Cadwalladar says that Grant respected the potential threat of Forrest mostly due to his unorthodoxy...

"If Forrest was in command he [Grant] at once became apprehensive because the latter was amenable to no known rules of procedure, was a law to himself for all military acts, and was constantly doing the unexpected, at all times and places..."

There are quotes that make it seem like Grant was in pure military admiration of Forrest, but on further inspection it seems like it was more of a healthy respect for the unpredictable dangerousness he posed.

Later Forrest and Grant would continue to be on opposing sides with Forrest as leader of the Klan and a political rival. Though Sherman stated he would have considered placing Forrest in command if the US went to war with Spain, it's difficult to say if Grant would have agreed.

Forrest would attempt to explain away his involvement in the Ft. Pillow massacre and also his involvement with the Klan. In the end I don't think it's as pivotal whether he personally ordered the massacre or personally ordered Klan violence it's more important to question the role he played in inspiring and supporting a climate conducive to such radical acts. Whether genuine sentiments reflecting a changed outlook or over-compensation, late in his life Forrest dis-avowed his involvement with the Klan and espoused racial harmony. His grandson NB Forrest II apparently would not carry on this new outlook on racial harmony, becoming a leader in the second iteration of the Klan in the early 20th century as a Grand Dragon.

Back on subject I found a couple more anecdotes about Grant to share, the following occurring during the battles for Ft. Donelson:

"Riding back to his farmhouse headquarters, Grant passed numerous dead and wounded from both armies. He saw a Union officer and a Confederate soldier, both severely wounded, lying side by side. The officer was trying, without much success, to give the Confederate a drink from his canteen. Grant dismounted and asked his staff officers if anyone had a flask. One was produced and Grant gave each man a swallow of brandy. 'Send for stretchers,' he called to Captain Rawlins. 'Send for stretchers at once for these two men.' As the aidmen came up, Grant remounted, only to notice the stretcher bearers ignored the Southern soldier. 'Take the Confederate too,' he ordered, 'the war is over between them.'"

Once Ft. Donelson had surrendered Grant was asked when the formal surrender ceremony would be, to which he replied:

"'There will be nothing of the kind,' said Grant. 'The surrender is now a fact. We have the fort, the men, the guns. Why should we go through vain forms and mortify and injure the spirit of the brave men, who, after all, are our own countrymen.'"

-Quotes from Grant by Jean Smith

The attitude displayed in these anectdotes is illustrative of a theme which would be echoed throughout the war by Grant at places like Vicksburg and most famously at Appomattox. A strong desire for reconciliation over retribution.
Thanks for the reply.

Within the Forrest Forum, we have a sub forum devoted to Fort Pillow.
You may enjoy it:

https://civilwartalk.com/forums/ft-pillow.177/
 
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