Need Help Locating Pension File

[nancyelizabeth]

I have been searching for my Great Great Grandfather's pension record since 2010 and keep hitting a brick wall. I have been in touch with the National Archives and with the NPRC in St. Louis several times to see if they can locate his file but I am getting bounced from one to the other with no luck at all. I am hoping someone could help me with this.

My g-great grandfather, HENRY MASEL, served the entire war with the 15th NY Heavy Artillery. He was discharged at war's end and was wounded at the Battle of Five Forks (gun shot wound in thigh). He received a pension certificate # 311265 on Feb. 13, 1885 and when he died on Nov. 11, 1916, his wife REGINA MASEL, got a widow's pension certificate #834059.

The problem as to why the records are not in Washington has to do with the other number associated with the file....the XC2693790. I have been told that those XC files are generally in St. Louis but no one there can find the records. As I said, I have written repeatedly without success.

I am sure there was quite a paper trail on him, given the fact that he served the entire war and was admitted to 2 Homes for the Disabled Vet...once in 1895 to Togus, Maine and again in 1897 to Bath, NY. I wonder if the fact that his widow, Regina's death in 1944, was so many years after the war, the records might be somewhere else?

So, if anyone has a desire to help in any way, believe me, it would be much appreciated. Six years is a long time to wait but I will not give up!

Thanks again for accepting me as a member.

(Great-Great Grandfather, Joseph Herzog, 28th NYSM)
(Great Grandfather, Marquard Bohl, 52nd NY Infantry)
Grand Uncle, Daniel Sullivan, 5th NY Heavy Artillery)

 

[lelliott19]

I wish I could help more. Have you checked alternate spellings? Civil war records are notorious for being filed under the wrong or misspelled name. You might try asking the folks at the Archives if they have any records for a Henry Mansel, Marsel, Marel, or other alternates. Have you been able to locate patient/inmate records from the homes?

https://books.google.com/books?id=G...ge&q="Henry Masel" New York Artillery&f=false

 

[East Tennessee Roots]

I have been searching for my Great Great Grandfather's pension record since 2010 and keep hitting a brick wall. I have been in touch with the National Archives and with the NPRC in St. Louis several times to see if they can locate his file but I am getting bounced from one to the other with no luck at all. I am hoping someone could help me with this.

My g-great grandfather, HENRY MASEL, served the entire war with the 15th NY Heavy Artillery. He was discharged at war's end and was wounded at the Battle of Five Forks (gun shot wound in thigh). He received a pension certificate # 311265 on Feb. 13, 1885 and when he died on Nov. 11, 1916, his wife REGINA MASEL, got a widow's pension certificate #834059.

The problem as to why the records are not in Washington has to do with the other number associated with the file....the XC2693790. I have been told that those XC files are generally in St. Louis but no one there can find the records. As I said, I have written repeatedly without success.

I am sure there was quite a paper trail on him, given the fact that he served the entire war and was admitted to 2 Homes for the Disabled Vet...once in 1895 to Togus, Maine and again in 1897 to Bath, NY. I wonder if the fact that his widow, Regina's death in 1944, was so many years after the war, the records might be somewhere else?

So, if anyone has a desire to help in any way, believe me, it would be much appreciated. Six years is a long time to wait but I will not give up!

Thanks again for accepting me as a member.

(Great-Great Grandfather, Joseph Herzog, 28th NYSM)
(Great Grandfather, Marquard Bohl, 52nd NY Infantry)
Grand Uncle, Daniel Sullivan, 5th NY Heavy Artillery)

- New York: Report of the Adjutant-General 1893-1906 spells his name as Henry Massal.

Could they be getting your ancestors records confused with this USCT veteran of the 10th MO. Heavy Artillery ?
His name spelled Henry Meisel.

 

[mcfb50]

Did his widow remarry?

 

[Suzanne A]

I'm so sorry to hear about this. It sounds like the file is lost or misfiled in a way that it can't be found by logical search.
They did not microfilm these files, so if the file wasn't digitized by Ancestry (fold3), there would be no copy. Not all XC files are in St. Louis. The way they determine if the XC file is in St. Louis, they tell me, is they look first in Washington and if it isn't there, they assume it's in St. Louis. That means it could have been misfiled ini D.C. Did you go to DC and speak with anyone or just write? I'm there on average once a month and I know who to speak to about it (know him by sight, not by name). My next visit is not yet scheduled, but I'll bookmark this and check back with you before I go & see if you think a personal inquiry would help at that point.

Do you know if anyone ever saw the file after it was created or accessed it in the last 25 years or so?

I saw no misspellings in the pension cards I viewed for this matter. Although spelling variants are usually a problem, it's not that much of a problem with pension files -- when they granted a pension, they were looking for aliases and imposteurs and they attempted to amass all the spelling variations for an individual soldier in their vetting of the claims. In other words, spelling at this point was something they focused on.

It is possible if the file is in St. Louis that it's in Ancestry's possession for digitization. I'm not sure that's a meaningful place to check, though, if you've been looking for it for 6 years, their efforts to digitize pension files are only a couple of years old.

I don't think they would have needed to access the pension file just because his widow lived to 1944 -- usually only payment records were kept active by the VA after the pension was established. However, I know from reading postings on this site that they did a review of persons who were still receiving Civil War Pension payments long after the War was over well into the 20th Century, perhaps suspecting that they had not received notification when the rightful recipient died. I wonder if that could have caused your file to move around. Definitely an issue to bring up, I would think.

I can't think of anything else to do to help. Good luck.

 

[nancyelizabeth]

- New York: Report of the Adjutant-General 1893-1906 spells his name as Henry Massal.

Could they be getting your ancestors records confused with this USCT veteran of the 10th MO. Heavy Artillery ?
His name spelled Henry Meisel.

View attachment 109279

I don't think so

 

[nancyelizabeth]

I don't think so because they know of the Massal spelling. The XC file is the problem.

 

[nancyelizabeth]

I wish I could help more. Have you checked alternate spellings? Civil war records are notorious for being filed under the wrong or misspelled name. You might try asking the folks at the Archives if they have any records for a Henry Mansel, Marsel, Marel, or other alternates. Have you been able to locate patient/inmate records from the homes?

View attachment 109272
https://books.google.com/books?id=GYhFAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq="Henry+Masel"+New+York+Artillery&source=bl&ots=fA5Qff2CLp&sig=QT0KH_7r9fUzK762B98RKhI3Fj0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbzJyJ7_HOAhVE7iYKHSApDhgQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q="Henry Masel" New York Artillery&f=false

Not sure how to get the records from the Homes for the Disabled Vets. Would you know?

 

[nancyelizabeth]

I'm so sorry to hear about this. It sounds like the file is lost or misfiled in a way that it can't be found by logical search.
They did not microfilm these files, so if the file wasn't digitized by Ancestry (fold3), there would be no copy. Not all XC files are in St. Louis. The way they determine if the XC file is in St. Louis, they tell me, is they look first in Washington and if it isn't there, they assume it's in St. Louis. That means it could have been misfiled ini D.C. Did you go to DC and speak with anyone or just write? I'm there on average once a month and I know who to speak to about it (know him by sight, not by name). My next visit is not yet scheduled, but I'll bookmark this and check back with you before I go & see if you think a personal inquiry would help at that point.

Do you know if anyone ever saw the file after it was created or accessed it in the last 25 years or so?

I saw no misspellings in the pension cards I viewed for this matter. Although spelling variants are usually a problem, it's not that much of a problem with pension files -- when they granted a pension, they were looking for aliases and imposteurs and they attempted to amass all the spelling variations for an individual soldier in their vetting of the claims. In other words, spelling at this point was something they focused on.

It is possible if the file is in St. Louis that it's in Ancestry's possession for digitization. I'm not sure that's a meaningful place to check, though, if you've been looking for it for 6 years, their efforts to digitize pension files are only a couple of years old.

I don't think they would have needed to access the pension file just because his widow lived to 1944 -- usually only payment records were kept active by the VA after the pension was established. However, I know from reading postings on this site that they did a review of persons who were still receiving Civil War Pension payments long after the War was over well into the 20th Century, perhaps suspecting that they had not received notification when the rightful recipient died. I wonder if that could have caused your file to move around. Definitely an issue to bring up, I would think.

I can't think of anything else to do to help. Good luck.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. To answer your questions, I have only done communication through phone calls and writing. I've not showed up in person. I would be thrilled if you could speak to someone on my behalf!!!! I realize that person to person contact if the best way to get someone interested in your plight and, honestly, I would appreciate your help in whatever way you are willing to help.

I don't know if the file has ever been seen, unfortunately. I suspect that the file is large and filled with medical info because he served the entire war and was wounded in the last days at Five Forks and I do think the file has moved around.

I am hoping someone would take an interest in searching. I've not been to DC or St Louis since I'm in Indiana. But if you think that would help my cause, is be willing to make the trip.

I look forward to. Whatever you can do to help...however small. Believe me, it is appreciated!

 

[Suzanne A]

I will be happy to help, but don't know when my next trip to DC is. Usually I'm there once a month, but I don't schedule them myself. I have you on my To Do for Archives list, but if you haven't heard from me near the end of the month, just send me a reminder here or via a Conversation on this site.

There won't be that much medical. The pension bureau first searched all the Army medical records for injury reports, hospitalizations or notations in the service records of health issues -- this material is not in the pension file. Then they had the veteran examined by one of their own doctors who filed out a form that was 1 legal sized page. What makes these files large is correspondence back and forth from the claimant or his or her representative complaining of delay or from the Bureau asking for and receiving further info or rejecting the claim in which case the claimant appealed or amended the claim and tried again. In the case of the widow's claim, they often have a lot of paper involving her proof of the marriage to the Bureau's satisfaction (official marriage certificates in mid 19th century were usually not created or maintained by the states) and then proving the negative, that she had not remarried or if she had remarried that her later husband(s) had died. Also increases in benefits authorized by Congress were not automatically granted, and they involved submission of an application for the increase by the claimant and entailed a new medical report and created some processing papers from the Bureau. Pensioners who were receiving benefits for a number of years and had good representation might have applied for increases 4 or 5 times.

 

[nancyelizabeth]

I will be happy to help, but don't know when my next trip to DC is. Usually I'm there once a month, but I don't schedule them myself. I have you on my To Do for Archives list, but if you haven't heard from me near the end of the month, just send me a reminder here or via a Conversation on this site.

There won't be that much medical. The pension bureau first searched all the Army medical records for injury reports, hospitalizations or notations in the service records of health issues -- this material is not in the pension file. Then they had the veteran examined by one of their own doctors who filed out a form that was 1 legal sized page. What makes these files large is correspondence back and forth from the claimant or his or her representative complaining of delay or from the Bureau asking for and receiving further info or rejecting the claim in which case the claimant appealed or amended the claim and tried again. In the case of the widow's claim, they often have a lot of paper involving her proof of the marriage to the Bureau's satisfaction (official marriage certificates in mid 19th century were usually not created or maintained by the states) and then proving the negative, that she had not remarried or if she had remarried that her later husband(s) had died. Also increases in benefits authorized by Congress were not automatically granted, and they involved submission of an application for the increase by the claimant and entailed a new medical report and created some processing papers from the Bureau. Pensioners who were receiving benefits for a number of years and had good representation might have applied for increases 4 or 5 times.

Thanks for your kind offer. As I have waited for over 6 years, I have developed patience. I will remind you in a month. As to the medical info, my other great grandfather had tons of paperwork in his file, dealing with obtaining more money in his pension since he had lost his hearing. They fought for the extra money and he was only in for 7 months.

But we will see if anything turns up. Would the records for his stays at the two disabled homes be in his file or would that be found separately?

Again, you have my complete gratitude.

 

[Suzanne A]

I've never looked up records from a home for disabled veterans and don't believe there would be any in a pension file other than as a current address for payments. Once a pension was granted, it seems the pension bureau used their own doctors examinations and the other medical information in the file was submitted by the claimant, affidavits of caretakers and letters from their own doctors. The Pension Bureau would not be involved in any way in the administration of those homes. Sounds like your great grandfather had to overcome significant resistence in getting his increase. Unfortunately they did try bureaucratically to make it hard for people to obtain benefits on purpose. In addition to increases for changes in the law, increases were sought by pensioners for change in their level of disability as with your ancestor. I usually do not see a lot of medical on these issues. Just to be clear, the average file I see is between 50 and 100 pages, counting front and back if used as 2 pages. So when I think of a large file, I'm thinking of a really large file. BTW loss of hearing in old age at this time was usually due to accumulation and hardening of ear wax which they didn't know how to remedy -- it always makes me sad to see this. Old age then was also plagued by blindness due to cataracts which we no longer have to endure. I have seen files including one of my ancestors where the elderly veteran was deaf and blind and I think how sad, an otherwise healthy individual is rendered virtually helpless and dependent.

I recently saw on Ancestry a category under Military called "US National Homes for Disabled Volunteer Soldiers, 1866 - 1938". You might search it as a Card Catalog search. I imagine though it is more of a population cenus and that they do not keep medical records on the soldier? I also wonder if there weren't state run homes for disabled veterans or GAR or Daughters of the Confederacy homes for disabled veterans as well, and don't know if they would be included in this database.

I have researched a couple of soldiers that lived in veterans homes in KS. One case was really sad. A number of CW veterans had PTSD, undiagnosed and untreated of course, from the War which may have caused them to be divorced after they came home and possibly abandoned by their families because of their behavior or alcoholism or drugs used to self-medicate. These men would occasionally wind up in these veterans homes, but could be kicked out for infractions of the house rules. One of my subjects was kicked out of his veterans home for an infraction, I don't know the nature of it, and left homeless. He went to his hometown cemetery and shot himself. The local GAR was kind enough to bury him properly and obtain a veteran's tombstone for him. I almost feel haunted by that case when he comes to mind.

 

[nancyelizabeth]

I've never looked up records from a home for disabled veterans and don't believe there would be any in a pension file other than as a current address for payments. Once a pension was granted, it seems the pension bureau used their own doctors examinations and the other medical information in the file was submitted by the claimant, affidavits of caretakers and letters from their own doctors. The Pension Bureau would not be involved in any way in the administration of those homes. Sounds like your great grandfather had to overcome significant resistence in getting his increase. Unfortunately they did try bureaucratically to make it hard for people to obtain benefits on purpose. In addition to increases for changes in the law, increases were sought by pensioners for change in their level of disability as with your ancestor. I usually do not see a lot of medical on these issues. Just to be clear, the average file I see is between 50 and 100 pages, counting front and back if used as 2 pages. So when I think of a large file, I'm thinking of a really large file. BTW loss of hearing in old age at this time was usually due to accumulation and hardening of ear wax which they didn't know how to remedy -- it always makes me sad to see this. Old age then was also plagued by blindness due to cataracts which we no longer have to endure. I have seen files including one of my ancestors where the elderly veteran was deaf and blind and I think how sad, an otherwise healthy individual is rendered virtually helpless and dependent.

I recently saw on Ancestry a category under Military called "US National Homes for Disabled Volunteer Soldiers, 1866 - 1938". You might search it as a Card Catalog search. I imagine though it is more of a population cenus and that they do not keep medical records on the soldier? I also wonder if there weren't state run homes for disabled veterans or GAR or Daughters of the Confederacy homes for disabled veterans as well, and don't know if they would be included in this database.

I have researched a couple of soldiers that lived in veterans homes in KS. One case was really sad. A number of CW veterans had PTSD, undiagnosed and untreated of course, from the War which may have caused them to be divorced after they came home and possibly abandoned by their families because of their behavior or alcoholism or drugs used to self-medicate. These men would occasionally wind up in these veterans homes, but could be kicked out for infractions of the house rules. One of my subjects was kicked out of his veterans home for an infraction, I don't know the nature of it, and left homeless. He went to his hometown cemetery and shot himself. The local GAR was kind enough to bury him properly and obtain a veteran's tombstone for him. I almost feel haunted by that case when he comes to mind.

My GGrandfather, Henry Masel(the one with the XC file) was rejected from his GAR post. I saw it in their records on Anxestry. I wonder why?

 

[Drew]

I have been searching for my Great Great Grandfather's pension record since 2010 and keep hitting a brick wall. I have been in touch with the National Archives and with the NPRC in St. Louis several times to see if they can locate his file but I am getting bounced from one to the other with no luck at all. I am hoping someone could help me with this.

OK, I think someone can. Six years of being bounced between bureaucrats is more than enough. I'm sending you a private message, NancyElizabeth. Look for it.

My GGrandfather, Henry Masel(the one with the XC file) was rejected from his GAR post. I saw it in their records on Anxestry. I wonder why?

Ancestry.com is fun but really not a definitive source. The primary records are what matter and they don't have all of them, to say the least.

BTW, welcome to CivilWarTalk.

 

[Suzanne A]

My GGrandfather, Henry Masel(the one with the XC file) was rejected from his GAR post. I saw it in their records on Anxestry. I wonder why?

Usually they are dropped after a warning and a period of time for nonpayment of dues or they elect not to continue with that post. I've read a number of GAR files from KS, I don't know if they were the same forms as other states. Can you post an image of what you read? Also members are discontinued when they move, where they may join another post. If they don't rejoin immediately at the new place, it's not booked as a transfer. I suppose one could be dropped for bad conduct, but I haven't seen it recorded that way. A problem I noted was as people got older, and GAR wasn't very active until after 1883, so the members weren't spring chickens, they could lose their faculties, such as sight and hearing or even suffer dementia or become housebound or crippled, etc. making attendance at meetings impossible or not enjoyable. Also that bit of money required as dues could be needed at home unless they had a grown child who would contribute to their expenses. One couple I followed was a wife who belonged to Womans Relief Corps, one of the two female allies of the GAR, and a husband who belonged to GAR. They ran into debt as they became older and incapacitated and sold their property to pay the debts, then moved across state lines to live with two grown children -- someone had to be with the husband every minute of his waking hours. After they moved, we could no longer find them in either organization although they had been very active and dedicated members eariler on.

 

[Suzanne A]

I looked on Ancestry and found the record book you referred to that lists Henry Masel as rejected in 1884 under General Order No 11 which has to do with leaving flowers on graves of soldiers on Memorial Day by Post # 89. Is there some reason he would have refused to do this? I've never seen a list like this, and the book supposedly belongs to Post # 65, but is some kind of summary or compilation of records from GAR posts across the state. That list that contains your ancestor's name is made up of many many rejections of individuals in 1884 from many, many posts in NY. It is a mystery to me. I do know that although the organizaion was chartered or formed in the 1860's, it was not widespread with many chapters before 1883-84. So this "rejection"is something that happened really at the beginning of the nationwide expansion of the GAR. I found a 1884 Grand Army of the Republic manual online (can't find it again right now to link) and it says that membership was open to all political persuasions and all religions. The only criterion for membership was an honorable discharge from service in the Army or Navy of the US (including federalized state militias) between dates in 1861 and Aug 9, 1865 (meaning service between those dates, not discharge between those dates) Your ancestor qualifies under that test. Could he have had a problem proving his service? The state of New York roster have him as Henry Massal but with a notation that the federal records are Henry Masel. If no one here can shed more light on this, I suggest you contact the Sons of the GAR, its successor organization which is still active, and ask them for an interpretation.

https://www.scribd.com/document/26340423/1884-Grand-Army-of-the-Republic-Hand-Book

I would be interested in hearing what you find out.

 

[nancyelizabeth]

Usually they are dropped after a warning and a period of time for nonpayment of dues or they elect not to continue with that post. I've read a number of GAR files from KS, I don't know if they were the same forms as other states. Can you post an image of what you read? Also members are discontinued when they move, where they may join another post. If they don't rejoin immediately at the new place, it's not booked as a transfer. I suppose one could be dropped for bad conduct, but I haven't seen it recorded that way. A problem I noted was as people got older, and GAR wasn't very active until after 1883, so the members weren't spring chickens, they could lose their faculties, such as sight and hearing or even suffer dementia or become housebound or crippled, etc. making attendance at meetings impossible or not enjoyable. Also that bit of money required as dues could be needed at home unless they had a grown child who would contribute to their expenses. One couple I followed was a wife who belonged to Womans Relief Corps, one of the two female allies of the GAR, and a husband who belonged to GAR. They ran into debt as they became older and incapacitated and sold their property to pay the debts, then moved across state lines to live with two grown children -- someone had to be with the husband every minute of his waking hours. After they moved, we could no longer find them in either organization although they had been very active and dedicated members eariler on.

I really know very little about him. I do appreciate your filling me in. I will have to give this done extra thought. Thanks

 

[Suzanne A]

Have you seen his two records on Ancestry in the Subcategorty US National Homes for Disabled Volunteer Soldiers?
He was in and out of these homes,

(1) From Dec 1896 to Sept 1897 he was in a home in Kennebec ME where his condition is GSW (gun shot wound) left thigh acquired in service in 1865.

(2) From 1897 to 1915, he has 10 admissions and discharges from the other home in Bath Steuben Co NY, all with abbreviated causes of discharge that I don't understand and different "conditions of admission" which are "GO" and then a number, they are referring to some manual or key. No mention of the GSW here, disability is attributed to Artic Rh which refers to some kind of Rheumatism, possibly arthritic. Rheumatism was a catch-all diagnosis very often seen in CW medicine that cannot be translated into today's term according to modern diagnotic definitions. Lumbago which is pain in the muscles and joints of lower back, and varicose veins of both legs.

I feel sorry for both Henry and his wife or daughter, whoever might have been looking after him. The daughter is listed as Mrs Kate Paul, 36 Metropolitan Ave Brooklyn NY.

Frequently Disabled Soldiers Homes were operated by GAR and funded in whole or in part by the US. I don't know if these homes are in that category. If GAR, perhaps again the Sons of the GAR somewhere could help in understanding these records.

 

[Suzanne A]

Just to make matters odder, I looked up Henry Masel's pension payment card from the Veterans administration (the lower card in the image), I see a notation I don't understand indicating that his pension was dropped at one point and then "reissued" by SPECIAL ACT, which may mean a special act of Congress after an appeal to a Congressman. Then after the pension is reissued, they are to "deduct" $19 monthly, rather than an amount to his check? It has to mean they are to add it, he wasn't receiving $19/month. The only reason I can think that he could have been dropped is that the government made efforts to cut the pension rolls in certain years (the Civil War pensions aggregated over 1/3 of the total federal budet at one time) and they could have sent out a request for information that wasn't responded to. That he might not have received such a request seems quite possible in light of his record of being in and out of the Veteran's homes at various time. Seeing what happened to the elderly in the 19th-early 20th century has given me new appreciation of the Social Security, Medicare and medicaid and public assistance benefits available now.

 

[nancyelizabeth]

Just to make matters odder, I looked up Henry Masel's pension payment card from the Veterans administration (the lower card in the image), I see a notation I don't understand indicating that his pension was dropped at one point and then "reissued" by SPECIAL ACT, which may mean a special act of Congress after an appeal to a Congressman. Then after the pension is reissued, they are to "deduct" $19 monthly, rather than an amount to his check? It has to mean they are to add it, he wasn't receiving $19/month. The only reason I can think that he could have been dropped is that the government made efforts to cut the pension rolls in certain years (the Civil War pensions aggregated over 1/3 of the total federal budet at one time) and they could have sent out a request for information that wasn't responded to. That he might not have received such a request seems quite possible in light of his record of being in and out of the Veteran's homes at various time. Seeing what happened to the elderly in the 19th-early 20th century has given me new appreciation of the Social Security, Medicare and medicaid and public assistance benefits available now.
View attachment 109870

Maybe there was some issue with his second wife, Regina. She was his second wife, the first (my great great grandmother) died in childbirth. I've never seen this card before so thanks for bringing it to my attention.