Most Underrated General

[rbasin]

I think Johnston gets compared to Lee a bit too much. Maybe this is why some discount what Johnston did accomplish.

 

[Elennsar]

Well, who is he supposed to be compared to? There are only four Confederate generals in charge of full armies for a prolonged period of time besides Joe - Sidney Johnston, Lee, Bragg, and Hood.

One might add Beauregard, but Cooper was a desk man, and Kirby-Smith didn't really command a full army (whatever the significance of the Trans-Mississippi, the forces at his disposal or threats are not the size of those east of the river).

Lee and Bragg are the longest serving examples of those four. And saying "he was better than Bragg", whether true or not, doesn't really answer satisfactorily if he was good enough for his rank.

 

[rbasin]

Well, who is he supposed to be compared to? There are only four Confederate generals in charge of full armies for a prolonged period of time besides Joe - Sidney Johnston, Lee, Bragg, and Hood.

One might add Beauregard, but Cooper was a desk man, and Kirby-Smith didn't really command a full army (whatever the significance of the Trans-Mississippi, the forces at his disposal or threats are not the size of those east of the river).

Lee and Bragg are the longest serving examples of those four. And saying "he was better than Bragg", whether true or not, doesn't really answer satisfactorily if he was good enough for his rank.

True. But you can compare him to Union Generals. Was he better than McClellan? Yes. Rosecrans? Slightly. Meade? Maybe?

 

[Elennsar]

True. But you can compare him to Union Generals. Was he better than McClellan? Yes. Rosecrans? Slightly. Meade? Maybe?

How did Joe Johnston show superior ability to Rosecrans or Meade (speaking of their careers overall - comparing Johnston at First Bull Run to Rosecrans at Chickamauga or Meade at Cold Harbor as if those are typical for either is stacking the deck)?

The thing to me about comparing him to Confederate generals - one of Johnston's persistent complaints is not having enough to work with (in men or supplies). And to some extent that's true. But every single Confederate commander at almost every point in the war had to grapple with being outnumbered and with less supplies and horses than would be ideal.

So it's all very well and good to say his resources are "inadequate", but he's being paid the big bucks to play the best game possible with the cards he has.

And Johnston seems to have been more concerned with minimizing his losses at the table than whether or not he could actually win the pot despite a poor hand.

 

[diane]

Just my piddly two cents worth, but whatever Johnston had to work with in the Carolinas was whatever he had to work with, and he did well - with what he had to work with. Even though the thing was hopeless and he knew it, his duty was to keep fighting until Davis told him to quit, he was the last man standing or Sherman stuck a gun in his face. The latter happened. He was the proverbial beat-up mouse flipping off the sleek descending eagle, but that's what he had to do.

 

[Nathanb1]

Just my piddly two cents worth, but whatever Johnston had to work with in the Carolinas was whatever he had to work with, and he did well - with what he had to work with. Even though the thing was hopeless and he knew it, his duty was to keep fighting until Davis told him to quit, he was the last man standing or Sherman stuck a gun in his face. The latter happened. He was the proverbial beat-up mouse flipping off the sleek descending eagle, but that's what he had to do.

He also got some darned fine terms, even if Sherman couldn't make it stick in the end.... That takes some chutzpah, even if you were/are friends.

 

[Elennsar]

He also got some darned fine terms, even if Sherman couldn't make it stick in the end.... That takes some chutzpah, even if you were/are friends.

Yeah. Clearly Johnston was not one of those people who wilted under pressure.

It just seems to have made him ornery.

 

[Nytram01]

By no means does Joseph E.Johnston belong in the "underrated generals" category.

Nobody was saying Johnston was underrated. I was merely taking up the defense of his conduct in the Peninsula Campaign against BillO who said that his interpretation of said conduct was that Johnston was deliberately trying to get his army besieged so that he could hold out until honour was satisfied then council Davis to surrender and return the seceeded States to the Union so he could go back to being Quartermaster General.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Joseph E. Johnson was aggressive at Bentonville but only had approximately 20,000 men (many of them reservists) to hold off Sherman at Bentonville March 19-21, 1865 -- unfortunately one of the 20,000 was Braxton Bragg.

My friend, CSA Today, I agree when it comes to the Carolinas Campaign. If Johnston had more men, or didn't have Bragg with him, he would have done better. Generally, for many of Johnston's reverses, Bragg bears a responsibility. For example, id he had sent more troops to reinforce Pemberton, it was possible that Johnston would attack. Moreover, the Atlanta Campaign came into being because of Bragg's blunders in the Chattanooga Campaign.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[GELongstreet]

...
But "quality control"? When wikipedia has standards for who can and can't edit it other than "jump right in" and "the consensus of the community", I'll believe it has reliable quality control...

But it has those standards where thought to be needed - there can be various levels of protection in place. And with a combination of article ratings and overlooking projects you have quality control that can be highly critical in regards to scholastic standards. In the end you´ll of course have to look on the sources and decide on your own if you deem the article worthy or not.

 

[Rebforever]

He's outnumbered 3 to 1 at Bentonville!!!! And somehow he's supposed to stop Sherman or inflict sufficient casualties at the end of the war with a bunch of boys, old men and whatever poor veterans have been through 4 years of living hell in the AoT. Are you kidding me?!!!!

No, CSA is NOT kidding.

 

[Elennsar]

My friend, CSA Today, I agree when it comes to the Carolinas Campaign. If Johnston had more men, or didn't have Bragg with him, he would have done better. Generally, for many of Johnston's reverses, Bragg bears a responsibility. For example, id he had sent more troops to reinforce Pemberton, it was possible that Johnston would attack. Moreover, the Atlanta Campaign came into being because of Bragg's blunders in the Chattanooga Campaign.
Civil War Scholar.

Bragg doesn't have more troops to send Johnston. Bragg didn't have enough troops to spare what he did send Johnston without unpleasant consequences for his department.

Hold Bragg responsible for his failures, not for Johnston's.

But it has those standards where thought to be needed - there can be various levels of protection in place. And with a combination of article ratings and overlooking projects you have quality control that can be highly critical in regards to scholastic standards. In the end you´ll of course have to look on the sources and decide on your own if you deem the article worthy or not.

Anything calling itself a credible, objective source of historical information always and without exception needs to have higher and narrower standards than "anyone (regardless of knowledge of the topic) can edit".

And the quality control cannot be based on "the consensus of the community (which in no means is restricted to scholars and experts)".

Does that mean every article is worthless? No. Just unreliable.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Bragg doesn't have more troops to send Johnston. Bragg didn't have enough troops to spare what he did send Johnston without unpleasant consequences for his department.

Hold Bragg responsible for his failures, not for Johnston's.

Elennsar,
Bragg's front was not threatened by Rosecrans, who was standing still after the Battle of Murfreesboro. Vicksburg had importance. President Davis said that it was holding the two halves of the Confederacy united and was right. If Bragg had sent more troops, or Johnston been more energetic, because he was lethargic there, the city would be saved.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[Elennsar]

Elennsar,
Bragg's front was not threatened by Rosecrans, who was standing still after the Battle of Murfreesboro. Vicksburg had importance. President Davis said that it was holding the two halves of the Confederacy united and was right. If Bragg had sent more troops, or Johnston been more energetic, because he was lethargic there, the city would be saved.
Civil War Scholar.

If Bragg had sent more troops, Tullahoma would have been even worse for the Confederates than it actually as if possible. And it was quite bad enough with him having to send http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moawar;cc=moawar;q1=Breckinridge;rgn=full text;idno=waro0035;didno=waro0035;view=image;seq=0855 - which per
http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moawar;cc=moawar;q1=Breckinridge;rgn=full text;idno=waro0035;didno=waro0035;view=image;seq=0848
would be around nine thousand infantry (counting cavalry is always a pain in light of poor record keeping, but Jackson's cavalry division is listed as around 3,700 men on July 30 http://digital.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moawar;cc=moawar;rgn=full text;idno=waro0038;didno=waro0038;view=image;seq=01041;node=waro0038:1 ) , out of an army that has only around 37,000 (around 15,000 cavalry and 2,800 artillery, but the Western Confederate cavalry's contributions are not especially stunning, and the artillery was never able to keep up with the Union even to extent Eastern Confederate artillery could) left with their departure. What more does Bragg have to send without rendering Tennessee - certainly important as well - defenseless?

Characterizing Bragg as "unthreatened" is precisely what lead to him being too weak to oppose Rosecrans's advance without having to get reinforcements for what would end up at Chickamauga.

It's bad enough without hindsight. It's ill informed to put it politely in light of what did happen.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Elennsar,
Middle Tennessee was not as much as important as the Mississippi. If Tullahoma was occupied by the Federals, but Vicksburg relieved, the force Bragg ought to detach, alongside the bulk of Pemberton's force, would return to him and force the Federals back and accomplish something in the Ohio at the very moment Lee's army was into Pennsylvania.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[Elennsar]

Elennsar,
Middle Tennessee was not as much as important as the Mississippi. If Tullahoma was occupied by the Federals, but Vicksburg relieved, the force Bragg ought to detach, alongside the bulk of Pemberton's force, would return to him and force the Federals back and accomplish something in the Ohio at the very moment Lee's army was into Pennsylvania.
Civil War Scholar.

In the interests of addressing this more fully than can be done in this thread, I'm starting a new thread here:
http://civilwartalk.com/threads/swaping-middle-tennessee-for-vicksburg.102912/

 

[BillO]

Hmmmmm.... I have a feeling that Captain is really the brains of this outfit.

Actually my wife is the brains in this outfit. Captain is in charge of security and I'm transportation officer and heavy weapons overwatch when Captain needs some backup.

 

[CSA Today]

Brig. General Josiah Gorgas, Chief of Ordinance

Did outstanding work in keeping Confederate armies well supplied with weapons and ammunition.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/239223/Josiah-Gorgas

A son William C. Gorgas was later Surgeon General of the United States.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

William Booth Taliaferro is also underrated. He was a capable commander, his career beginning under Jackson at First Manassas, where he did very well, earning a promotion to Brigadier General. During the Valley Campaign, he was in the "Stonewall Division" and, at Cedar Mountain, he ascended in command of the unit. He was also the victor of Fort Wagner and Olustee.

Civil War Scholar.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Elennsar,
Middle Tennessee was not as much as important as the Mississippi. If Tullahoma was occupied by the Federals, but Vicksburg relieved, the force Bragg ought to detach, alongside the bulk of Pemberton's force, would return to him and force the Federals back and accomplish something in the Ohio at the very moment Lee's army was into Pennsylvania.
Civil War Scholar.

You have a very vivid imagination. I have to give you that.