Most Underrated General

[Elennsar]

Elennsar,
What you say about the accuracy of Wikipedia depends on your view of the subject discussed and what the encyclopedia says. When I state Wikipedia is my source, you attack me, but when it supports your agenda, it is a good source.
Civil War Scholar.

I don't distrust wikipedia because it supports your argument, I distrust your argument because it is often relying on a source I don't trust.

I posted what I found reading it to compare it to your posted figures, which based on past examples I believed were influenced by wikipedia's numbers.

So whether or not the wikipedia articles were actually close to what you suggested was something I wanted to examine for myself.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

I believe that Breckinridge is also underrated. Given his inexperience in battle, because in the Mexican War, his regiment participated in no significant actions, he did very well. He fought with great determination and valor at Shiloh, retook Baton Rouge and held it for months, was a gallant fighter at Murfreesboro and broke the enemy's lines at Chickamauga. Don't forget that he was the hero of New Market and a subordinate of Early in the most part of his heroic stand in the Shenandoah, as a small tub to Sheridan's all-devouring whale.

Civil War Scholar.

 

[Malingerer]

And as we all know the government never, ever gets anything wrong, does it?

Is there somebody out there that always gets everything right?

 

[KeyserSoze]

Is there somebody out there that always gets everything right?

You mean other than my wife? Or so she tells me.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Is there somebody out there that always gets everything right?

No, except perhaps Keyser Soze's wife. LOL!
Civil War Scholar.

 

[Elennsar]

Is there somebody out there that always gets everything right?

God, maybe.

 

[BillO]

Me and believe me it's a curse. Oh lord it's hard to be humble.... you probably know the rest.

 

[Malingerer]

Me and believe me it's a curse. Oh lord it's hard to be humble.... you probably know the rest.

Well, obviously you Bill - I really meant anyone besides you.

 

[BillO]

Well, obviously you Bill - I really meant anyone besides you.

Sad to say but I knew that. See? It's hard being me.

 

[Nytram01]

I pulled my quote without change directly from Clifford Dowdy. So if Symonds says something different I guess they'll have to duke it out.

The quote as I gave came from Steven Newton's work as well as James Livingwood and Gilbert Govan's. The way to prove who was quoting correctly is to look at Johnston's Narrative which is the place it originally appeared, I dont have it on hand.

As for the rest, I agree that Johnston probably did have cause to complain about Lee moving his troops around but somebody needed to do it and Johnston simply wasn't responding to requests from his subordinates.

Bit hard to respond to requests from subordinate when his mail wasn't even reaching him. With Cooper failing to fulfill Johnston's request to forward his mail to him but instead sending it to Lee, and with Lee failing to even inform Johnston that letters from his suborinate had arrived and only doing so after a couple of days had past and he'd already dealt with the matter, and with Johnston sending specific request to be kept informed, it can hardly be said that this is a case of Johnston neglecting anyone.

 

[Malingerer]

Sad to say but I knew that. See? It's hard being me.

Hmmmmm.... I have a feeling that Captain is really the brains of this outfit.

 

[Elennsar]

The quote as I gave came from Steven Newton's work as well as James Livingwood and Gilbert Govan's. The way to prove who was quoting correctly is to look at Johnston's Narrative which is the place it originally appeared, I dont have it on hand.

Thanks to the magic of the internet:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:2001.05.0070:chapter=4

"The belief that events on the Peninsula would soon compel the Confederate Government to adopt my method of opposing the Federal army, reconciled me somewhat to the necessity of obeying the President's order."

Or per
https://archive.org/stream/narrativeofmilit00john/narrativeofmilit00john_djvu.txt (searching this form because its easy to copy/paste the bit of text in question)

"The belief that events on the Peninsula would soon compel the Confederate Government to adopt my method of opposing the Federal army, reconciled me somewhat to the necessity of obeying the President's order."


It looks like Dowdy has either unintentionally or intentionally misquoted Johnston to me.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

It's difficult to say that Joseph E.Johnston belong in the "underrated generals" category.
At First Manassas, he was opposed to the idea of a Confederate counterattack, which might have yielded Washington, the very capital of the Yankees, to the new nation.
At the Peninsula, he was constantly in retreat and was responsible for the fact that McClellan's army semi-beleaguered Richmond.
At Vicksburg, he stood near Jackson with 25000 men while Pemberton's defenders were eating rats in the besieged city.
At the Atlanta Campaign, he gave up too much territory in too short a time, letting the Federals reach the outskirts of Atlanta.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[Elennsar]

I'm not a defender of Johnston and I don't think he's underrated, but I must note the following in the interests of accurate history:

1) Not with the forces available. The Union army has unrouted, unengaged troops that stand in the way of a successful Confederate counterattack of this sort, even before we get into troops not brought to Bull Run in the first place that can be more readily moved to defend Washington than the Confederates - disorganized by victory - can move to strike said city.

http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moawar;cc=moawar;q1=Runyon;rgn=full text;idno=waro0002;didno=waro0002;view=image;seq=0343

Richardson's brigade and the 5th division were essentially unengaged. The 4th Division was entirely unengaged.

That makes perhaps 3,000 men or so (Richardson) plus over 11,000 men (4th and 5th divisions) (http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moawar;cc=moawar;q1=present for duty;rgn=full text;idno=waro0002;didno=waro0002;view=image;seq=0325 ) plus any troops from Patterson (approximately 14,000 men present for duty on June 28 - http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moawar;cc=moawar;q1=present for duty;rgn=full text;idno=waro0002;didno=waro0002;view=image;seq=0203) plus any troops such as the four regiments here ( http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moawar;cc=moawar;q1=McCunn;rgn=full text;idno=waro0002;didno=waro0002;view=image;seq=0767 ) at Alexandria or Washington.

This is not a situation where Washington will fall "if only Johnston would advance". It would be a considerable engagement at best and undo all that was accomplished at Manassas at worst.

2) Johnston did not have 25,000 men until - at the earliest- mid-late June. While his failure to attack more energetically with what he had can be dealt with, we need to accurately address what he had at the point his forces might be able to do something against Grant's - by the point Johnston has 25,000 Grant has considerably more than him and Pemberton.


His conduct on the Peninsula I believe Nytram can describe better than I can, and by the time of the fighting in the Carolinas, no Confederate army is achieving anything significant. Rating him poorly for failing to do so would mean rating Lee just as badly.

I don't have a high opinion of Johnston's generalship, but I have an even lower opinion of misrepresenting it.

 

[rbasin]

And I think Johnston did a fairly decent job of slowing Sherman down. Maybe not the way Davis or others may like, but still. If he wrecked his army, say the way Hood did, in May or June of 1864, what would it have done to save the South, which was beyond saving anyway.

 

[CSA Today]

By no means does Joseph E.Johnston belong in the "underrated generals" category.
At First Manassas, he was opposed to the idea of a Confederate counterattack, which might have yielded Washington, the very capital of the Yankees, to the new nation.
At the Peninsula, he was constantly in retreat and was responsible for the fact that McClellan's army semi-beleaguered Richmond.
At Vicksburg, he stood near Jackson with 25000 men while Pemberton's defenders were eating rats in the besieged city.
At the Atlanta Campaign, he gave up too much territory in too short a time, letting the Federals reach the outskirts of Atlanta.
At the Carolinas, he failed to stop Sherman or inflict him sufficient casualties.
Civil War Scholar.

Joseph E. Johnson was aggressive at Bentonville but only had approximately 20,000 men (many of them reservists) to hold off Sherman at Bentonville March 19-21, 1865 -- unfortunately one of the 20,000 was Braxton Bragg.

 

[Jamieva]

By no means does Joseph E.Johnston belong in the "underrated generals" category.
At First Manassas, he was opposed to the idea of a Confederate counterattack, which might have yielded Washington, the very capital of the Yankees, to the new nation.
At the Peninsula, he was constantly in retreat and was responsible for the fact that McClellan's army semi-beleaguered Richmond.
At Vicksburg, he stood near Jackson with 25000 men while Pemberton's defenders were eating rats in the besieged city.
At the Atlanta Campaign, he gave up too much territory in too short a time, letting the Federals reach the outskirts of Atlanta.
At the Carolinas, he failed to stop Sherman or inflict him sufficient casualties.
Civil War Scholar.

He's outnumbered 3 to 1 at Bentonville!!!! And somehow he's supposed to stop Sherman or inflict sufficient casualties at the end of the war with a bunch of boys, old men and whatever poor veterans have been through 4 years of living hell in the AoT. Are you kidding me?!!!!

 

[Elennsar]

He's outnumbered 3 to 1 at Bentonville!!!! And somehow he's supposed to stop Sherman or inflict sufficient casualties at the end of the war with a bunch of boys, old men and whatever poor veterans have been through 4 years of living hell in the AoT. Are you kidding me?!!!!

And honestly, what the hay in this context would "sufficient causalities" even mean? I mean, let's say somehow Johnston pulls a miracle out of his hat and a third of Sherman's army are causalities.

That's going to mean . . . almost nothing at this point. Even "delaying the inevitable" is hindered by the fact that there won't be much stopping the remaining 40,000 odd Federals under Sherman from rendering that moot.

 

[Jamieva]

And honestly, what the hay in this context would "sufficient causalities" even mean? I mean, let's say somehow Johnston pulls a miracle out of his hat and a third of Sherman's army are causalities.

That's going to mean . . . almost nothing at this point. Even "delaying the inevitable" is hindered by the fact that there won't be much stopping the remaining 40,000 odd Federals under Sherman from rendering that moot.

Yes I meant to mention that point as well. Please quantify the terms sufficient. This should be interesting.

 

[Elennsar]

Yes I meant to mention that point as well. Please quantify the terms sufficient. This should be interesting.

Yeah. I'm not on the side of people who admire Johnston's generalship, but Pinkie Pie on a unicycle, this is asking for Johnston to have a tactical nuke in his pocket. Listing it as a reason Johnston isn't underrated is just plain insulting.