Mosby Standing Picture

[civilwarincolor]

Could it be a Tait jacket? Weren't they all the same--red facings?

Hmm, don't think I have heard of a Tait jacket for a Colonel. Could be though.

 

[TinCan]

CWIC

As I hope you know I am also a big fan of your work, but are you sure that jacket isn't the same as the one on display? Your work is always so correctly detailed....just wondering.

 

[civilwarincolor]

CWIC

As I hope you know I am also a big fan of your work, but are you sure that jacket isn't the same as the one on display? Your work is always so correctly detailed....just wondering.

Glad that you are a fan. This is a good question and one I have not found a satisfactory answer for.

If the cream collar and sleeve show dark in the B&W then maybe it is the same coat, but the challenge that I have with that is that when you look at images like these below, why are the collars (which appear similar to the modern Smithsonian photo) show as you would expect in the original B&W?

It seems to me that all of the images below would have a dark color for the collar and sleeve to match the one of Mosby, but it is the only one to exhibit this character in the period B&W image. I am not an expert on collodian wet plate photography, but I would be interested to know why there is an argument that "yellow shows up as black", but it did not happen in all of these others.


Gen. Henry H. Sibley

Gen. Benjamin F. Cheatham

General Joseph Wheeler:

 

[civilwarincolor]

CWIC

As I hope you know I am also a big fan of your work, but are you sure that jacket isn't the same as the one on display? Your work is always so correctly detailed....just wondering.

BTW, Thanks for putting me over the top! That last post I made moved me up to 2nd Lieutenant! Have a long way to go to catch up with you though.

 

[rdengmurr]

I love those photos in color, so vibrant and so real. Thanks, always glued to my computer to have a look, I eyes are now all screwy

 

[Patrick H]

My comment will probably cloud the issue a little bit. I've never heard of yellow or cream colors appearing as dark in a black and white photo. However, certain emulsions will definitely make red appear as a near-black gray. The reason that clouds the issue here is that I can't imagine why Mosby would allow himself to be photographed in an artillery jacket. So, whatever color originally appeared on the trim of this jacket, I doubt it was red!

 

[civilwarincolor]

I love those photos in color, so vibrant and so real. Thanks, always glued to my computer to have a look, I eyes are now all screwy

Thanks, much appreciated. It's not to late to pick up a 2016 Civil War In Color calendar , they just went on sale this week!

 

[civilwarincolor]

My comment will probably cloud the issue a little bit. I've never heard of yellow or cream colors appearing as dark in a black and white photo. However, certain emulsions will definitely make red appear as a near-black gray. The reason that clouds the issue here is that I can't imagine why Mosby would allow himself to be photographed in an artillery jacket. So, whatever color originally appeared on the trim of this jacket, I doubt it was red!

Which if I remember is why I ended up with brown instead of red. I can't find my notes (did this a few years ago) so don't have a specific reason why I chose brown, but I agree that it seems odd that just this one photo would turn a cream color black when it did not happen with the others.

I have heard the same argument made with this image of Theodore Roosevelt, but I have the same issue.

 

[James N.]

There are a number of images of Confederate leaders (i.e. R.E. Lee, etc.) taken after the war in uniform to satisfy interest from the North since photographs had not been available during the war for many of these men...

Although this is certainly true, it would be well to mention that in Lee's particular case, I believe the only post-war photos of him in uniform are the well-known ones taken on his back porch in Richmond by Matthew Brady himself at Mary Lee's urging immediately upon his return from Appomattox. The only other one that vaguely might qualify is one of him astride Traveler, but I think he's actually in civilian clothes rather than a uniform.

 

[James N.]

Thanks so much for that! I was looking but obviously wasn't quite apt. So next question, being that the picture is 1865, what provenance is there that Moseby ever wore this uniform? Could this picture have been staged after he surrendered? I am reading the biography on him right now, and haven't made it far into the book yet, but being a partisan, I don't reckon he'd be in uniform much.

Since no one has mentioned it yet, the presence of the saber - a weapon Mosby disdained as a useless and noisy encumbrance - suggests this is a photographer's prop. As for the uniform, NOT wearing one would've been a good way to ensure he was immediately lynched as a spy if he ever was captured!

 

[civilwarincolor]

Although this is certainly true, it would be well to mention that in Lee's particular case, I believe the only post-war photos of him in uniform are the well-known ones taken on his back porch in Richmond by Matthew Brady himself at Mary Lee's urging immediately upon his return from Appomattox. The only other one that vaguely might qualify is one of him astride Traveler, but I think he's actually in civilian clothes rather than a uniform.

The one of Lee is the most well known and documented. There are many others from the Brady Studio collection at the LOC that I suspect came from Brady photographers encouraging or inviting former Confederates to have their picture taken in order to fill out missing pieces in their sales album.

 

[TinCan]

I have heard the same argument made with this image of Theodore Roosevelt, but I have the same issue.

CWIC,
I see what you mean. Looking at Roosevelt's uniform ( in the museum at his home) the collar is most definitely yellow but appears a dark color in the photo.

 

[Patrick H]

I should have added earlier that I have only a passing knowledge of older photo emulsions and the way we would use their properties to make offset printing plates, etc. These much older emulsions undoubtedly had properties beyond my knowledge. Maybe there was, indeed, an emulsion that would make yellow tones appear very dark gray in black and white. We need a person VERY familiar with the chemistry of historic photo emulsions to help us out here!

 

[civilwarincolor]

I should have added earlier that I have only a passing knowledge of older photo emulsions and the way we would use their properties to make offset printing plates, etc. These much older emulsions undoubtedly had properties beyond my knowledge. Maybe there was, indeed, an emulsion that would make yellow tones appear very dark gray in black and white. We need a person VERY familiar with the chemistry of historic photo emulsions to help us out here!

I agree. My biggest issue is "Why some and not others?" If that is the case (black for yellow/cream) then I am not sure what to do with them. I cannot change it to be a very light color again.

 

[Patrick H]

I agree. My biggest issue is "Why some and not others?" If that is the case (black for yellow/cream) then I am not sure what to do with them. I cannot change it to be a very light color again.

I had never thought about this until I read your comments just above, but OF COURSE, this must confound you at times when you are trying to colorize an old image!

 

[civilwarincolor]

I had never thought about this until I read your comments just above, but OF COURSE, this must confound you at times when you are trying to colorize an old image!

Yeah, there are a few things that you figure out early when colorizing.

1. The darker the B&W the darker the color. For example a dark B&W image may produce a dark red, but not a pink. A light gray on the other hand can produce a pink but not a dark "flag red" color.
2. When the color is pure black/white you cannot add any color to it. The color only stays when there is gray (not pure B&W) to work with.
3. You will never know all of the answers. For example, almost all of the CW images taken outdoors show no sky/clouds. The reported reason for this is that it was not possible to take pictures that exposed the sky properly and therefore they got washed out. While this is true MOST of the time, it is not always true.

Have a look at these examples:

Fort McAllister

Sullivan's Island, SC

Nashville TN

 

[Legion Para]

Moseby wore several different uniforms during the war and was well photographed. Several images clearly show him wearing a double breasted shell jacket with external slash pocket. Unfortunately all of these photos I found online lacked clarity.

 

[Legion Para]

 

[Legion Para]

 

[Legion Para]