Mod 1861 .58 Musket

[top39]

I went into my safe today - and discovered a Musket I had totally forgotten. It is a WATERTOWN - 1861 Model - dated 1862 -- 3 Cartouches -- fully readable.. A real beauty -- beautiful clean bore.. BUT , the ramrod is not there ?? Does anyone have an original ramrod for sale ???
I still have my FIRST Musket -- bought from BANNERMAN'S Store in NYC -- 501 Broadway ...in 1954.
WOW -- paid $18 for it... I sure miss that store.......

 

[frontrank2]

If no luck, get a repro from Lodgewood Mfg. or S&S Firearms. It would be better than nothing.

 

[johan_steele]

Unfired? No. Originals yes & not enough of them.

Lodgewood typically has an M1861 ramrod in stock. I think an original uncut is around $200 and a repro around $50.

 

[top39]

I will check Lodgewood this afternoon.....
I guess a repro will do until a original is found.. Even if I have to buy a junker to get the rod
2 of my Original pieces are NEW - UNFIRED. One has a fantastic history.....
During the CW -- the Rebs would grab what they could and trade with the French for whatever they needed at the time. A full case of LG&Y Muskets was traded to the french... Years later...1945 to be exact --- a US Soldier in France went sightseeing .. into a Museum he went.... In a glass case there were some weapons - all antique stuff...on the end - was a US MUSKET ... This soldier from Kentucky saw it immediately - and -- took his M1 Rifle and broke the glass - removing the Musket. That was his war trophy from France. In 1987 of so - I happened across and ad for a US Musket - as part of an Estate. I immediately bought it - sight unseen...simply because of the history in the ad. Once here - I was stunned by what I saw.. On the stock is a Cartouche - with the name of the French Museum -- and a 4 digit number - no doubt the catalog number from the Museum records... I contacted them and asked if they would like to buy it back.. Ha...they did not .. But , they did corroborate that it came from the US Confederacy.. Their records said "from Southern Soldiers in the US.
The piece is Factory NEW..To look down the bore is like looking in the past... a bright shiny twisting road.. Just unreal.... Stock is still a very light golden color. More later on another NEW unfired one ......

 

[TFSmith121]

I went into my safe today - and discovered a Musket I had totally forgotten. It is a WATERTOWN - 1861 Model - dated 1862 -- 3 Cartouches -- fully readable.. A real beauty -- beautiful clean bore.. BUT , the ramrod is not there ?? Does anyone have an original ramrod for sale ???
I still have my FIRST Musket -- bought from BANNERMAN'S Store in NYC -- 501 Broadway ...in 1954.
WOW -- paid $18 for it... I sure miss that store.......

Sorry, is the WATERTOWN reference to the arsenal? Were M1861s manufactured there?

Not following the reference...

Best,

 

[johan_steele]

I will check Lodgewood this afternoon.....
I guess a repro will do until a original is found.. Even if I have to buy a junker to get the rod
2 of my Original pieces are NEW - UNFIRED. One has a fantastic history.....
During the CW -- the Rebs would grab what they could and trade with the French for whatever they needed at the time. A full case of LG&Y Muskets was traded to the french... Years later...1945 to be exact --- a US Soldier in France went sightseeing .. into a Museum he went.... In a glass case there were some weapons - all antique stuff...on the end - was a US MUSKET ... This soldier from Kentucky saw it immediately - and -- took his M1 Rifle and broke the glass - removing the Musket. That was his war trophy from France. In 1987 of so - I happened across and ad for a US Musket - as part of an Estate. I immediately bought it - sight unseen...simply because of the history in the ad. Once here - I was stunned by what I saw.. On the stock is a Cartouche - with the name of the French Museum -- and a 4 digit number - no doubt the catalog number from the Museum records... I contacted them and asked if they would like to buy it back.. Ha...they did not .. But , they did corroborate that it came from the US Confederacy.. Their records said "from Southern Soldiers in the US.
The piece is Factory NEW..To look down the bore is like looking in the past... a bright shiny twisting road.. Just unreal.... Stock is still a very light golden color. More later on another NEW unfired one ......

That story is wrong. The CS never traded or sold arms abroad. However large numbers of US made arms were sold to France prior to the Franco Prussian War.

 

[top39]

That story is wrong. The CS never traded or sold arms abroad. However large numbers of US made arms were sold to France prior to the Franco Prussian War.

Wrong.... Many ARMS were traded to the French -- right here in the U.S. of A...
Common knowledge to us in the 1950's. I worked at the Staten Island - Richmondtown Historical Society .
We had many eyewitness accounts of French -- and other Countries trading with the Rebs...

Sorry, is the WATERTOWN reference to the arsenal? Were M1861s manufactured there?

Not following the reference...

Best,

The WATERTOWN Arsenal was in Massachusetts.. The rifle was manufactured there. Not sure what sort of percentage they produced .. but -- there were over a dozen manufactures of the 1861 and 1863 Rifles. Never really dug into it.. My guess is that Springfield had the highest production rate. Old John Brown and his kids made a mess of the Harpers Ferry Arsenal -- or , it may have kept up with Springfield. I have one of the "last" Flintlocks out of Harpers Ferry...I guess that is why it is in such great shape.. Used a VERY little bit...

 

[TFSmith121]

Wrong.... Many ARMS were traded to the French -- right here in the U.S. of A...
Common knowledge to us in the 1950's. I worked at the Staten Island - Richmondtown Historical Society .
We had many eyewitness accounts of French -- and other Countries trading with the Rebs...


The WATERTOWN Arsenal was in Massachusetts.. The rifle was manufactured there. Not sure what sort of percentage they produced .. but -- there were over a dozen manufactures of the 1861 and 1863 Rifles. Never really dug into it.. My guess is that Springfield had the highest production rate. Old John Brown and his kids made a mess of the Harpers Ferry Arsenal -- or , it may have kept up with Springfield. I have one of the "last" Flintlocks out of Harpers Ferry...I guess that is why it is in such great shape.. Used a VERY little bit...

Hum. Thought Watertown was mostly artillery and related ordnance and spares. Anyone have more information on small arms manufactured at Ordnance facilities other than Springfield in 1861-65?

Best,

 

[Banjo Pete]

Pictures, please!

 

[67th Tigers]

The "Watertown" in question is Watertown, NY not Watertown, Mass (where the arsenal was).

Charles B. Hoard owned a factory in Watertown, NY and pitched for a contract of 50,000 M1861's which he received on 24th December 1861. He planned on using the contract to get a loan for the machinery and import it, and lots of the parts (such as the barrels and cones) from England.

He didn't deliver any muskets until September 1863 (i.e. 20 months after the contract was awarded), and in November '63 the government cancelled the contract with only 1,500 M1861's delivered. They issued a new contract for 20,000 M1863's and over the next two years Hoard delivered 11,300 of those.

If this is dated 1862 it must be one of the experimental prototypes.

 

[johan_steele]

Wrong.... Many ARMS were traded to the French -- right here in the U.S. of A...
Common knowledge to us in the 1950's. I worked at the Staten Island - Richmondtown Historical Society .
We had many eyewitness accounts of French -- and other Countries trading with the Rebs...


The WATERTOWN Arsenal was in Massachusetts.. The rifle was manufactured there. Not sure what sort of percentage they produced .. but -- there were over a dozen manufactures of the 1861 and 1863 Rifles. Never really dug into it.. My guess is that Springfield had the highest production rate. Old John Brown and his kids made a mess of the Harpers Ferry Arsenal -- or , it may have kept up with Springfield. I have one of the "last" Flintlocks out of Harpers Ferry...I guess that is why it is in such great shape.. Used a VERY little bit...

The last flintlock out of Harpers Ferry was the M1840, almost all of those were converted to percussion. An original flintlock configuration M1840 is rather worthwhile and a Harpers Ferry marked one is slightly more valuable due to less being manufactured than at Springfield. It is more likely either a pattern arm or one reconverted to flintlock to up the value. I know of a percussion conversion one right now in pristine condition that looks fresh off the armory rack; it has been cleaned to make her pristine. Seller still wants more than $2k for her. Same seller has a pristine 1865 marked Remington M1861. Pristine because it was likely never issued out and likely meticulously cared for her whole life.

John Brown did no appreciable damage to the machinery at Harpers Ferry; his disruption of manufacture was minimal.

A lot of things were "common knowledge" in the 1950's that doesn't make them correct. There is also a reason I call historical societies "hysterical" societies. I too work in a museum as a research assistant and volunteer. I have done this in a variety of museums for most of 25 years now. In that time I have corrected several inaccuracies or outright inventions. I have also visited a large number of museums and noted errors and inaccuracies. Long ago I was taught how to advise a museum or historical society of errors and inaccuracies. Most are typos, some are gross errors. Some are corrected some are not. As a few examples of how errors and inaccurate info gets passed: we had a pistol donated that the elderly woman insisted her father had carried in WW1... manufacture of this pistol did not begin until 1920. I know of a beat up old trapdoor Springfield donated as carried by an ancestor at Valley Forge. We had an elderly gentleman come in and insist he had been at both Normandy and Iwo... after a very short time listening it was clear he didn't know a Marine from Ranger. For some odd reason when I pulled up the NARA database and asked for his info so I could look up his records he suddenly had an urgent appointment. In short simply because someone says it is so does not make it true. It also doesn't mean someone is lying, they may well believe the story as that is what they were told. In short buy the weapon, not the story; trust but verify.

There was ample trade with the French prior to the Civil War and ample purchases of French equipment by the CS. As to a pristine LG&Y Colt Special Model 1861 being traded to the French by the CS... I call pure moonshine. Now the US selling large numbers to the French in the build up prior to the Franco Prussian War... as that is where well over a million arms went is the most likely reality. A vendor concocting a story to make a CS connection in an attempt to raise the value... far from unknown.

The M1861 series arms is a fascinating study as is the history of ACW small arms in general. The Rifle Musket by Claude Fuller is a very valuable resource as is US Military Small Arms 1816-1865 by Robert Reilly but are quite dated. American Military Shoulder Arms Vol 3 by George Moller is likely the most up to date work out there.

 

[top39]

The last flintlock out of Harpers Ferry was the M1840, almost all of those were converted to percussion. An original flintlock configuration M1840 is rather worthwhile and a Harpers Ferry marked one is slightly more valuable due to less being manufactured than at Springfield. It is more likely either a pattern arm or one reconverted to flintlock to up the value. I know of a percussion conversion one right now in pristine condition that looks fresh off the armory rack; it has been cleaned to make her pristine. Seller still wants more than $2k for her. Same seller has a pristine 1865 marked Remington M1861. Pristine because it was likely never issued out and likely meticulously cared for her whole life.

John Brown did no appreciable damage to the machinery at Harpers Ferry; his disruption of manufacture was minimal.

A lot of things were "common knowledge" in the 1950's that doesn't make them correct. There is also a reason I call historical societies "hysterical" societies. I too work in a museum as a research assistant and volunteer. I have done this in a variety of museums for most of 25 years now. In that time I have corrected several inaccuracies or outright inventions. I have also visited a large number of museums and noted errors and inaccuracies. Long ago I was taught how to advise a museum or historical society of errors and inaccuracies. Most are typos, some are gross errors. Some are corrected some are not. As a few examples of how errors and inaccurate info gets passed: we had a pistol donated that the elderly woman insisted her father had carried in WW1... manufacture of this pistol did not begin until 1920. I know of a beat up old trapdoor Springfield donated as carried by an ancestor at Valley Forge. We had an elderly gentleman come in and insist he had been at both Normandy and Iwo... after a very short time listening it was clear he didn't know a Marine from Ranger. For some odd reason when I pulled up the NARA database and asked for his info so I could look up his records he suddenly had an urgent appointment. In short simply because someone says it is so does not make it true. It also doesn't mean someone is lying, they may well believe the story as that is what they were told. In short buy the weapon, not the story; trust but verify.

There was ample trade with the French prior to the Civil War and ample purchases of French equipment by the CS. As to a pristine LG&Y Colt Special Model 1861 being traded to the French by the CS... I call pure moonshine. Now the US selling large numbers to the French in the build up prior to the Franco Prussian War... as that is where well over a million arms went is the most likely reality. A vendor concocting a story to make a CS connection in an attempt to raise the value... far from unknown.

The M1861 series arms is a fascinating study as is the history of ACW small arms in general. The Rifle Musket by Claude Fuller is a very valuable resource as is US Military Small Arms 1816-1865 by Robert Reilly but are quite dated. American Military Shoulder Arms Vol 3 by George Moller is likely the most up to date work out there.

Pictures, please!

 

[top39]

Sorry -- I stand by my TRADING WITH FRENCH... Hand written Letters in the possession of the Historical Society stated that some rebel Soldiers had traded cases o f weapons to "someone" who in turn was doing trading with the French...
Opinions are like butts -- everyone has one .. and like I said , I stand by mine - as well as the WW2 Veteran who read what it said on the LG&Y in France - at their Museum. I feel you had better go to France and tell them there that their information was wrong.
On the Watertown NY .. Yup - read the wrong line from my log of Muskets. Was NY -- Not MA...

I'll try to get some pics in here....??

 

[top39]

Pictures, please!

 

[top39]

I'll get the Harpers Ferry ....and take some pics...

 

[top39]

As a brat kid in the 1950's.."we" spent a lot of time digging old FORT RICHMOND. Piles of Muskets were found buried - each and every one of them were damaged. BADLY. Washington went through the Richmondtown area as he headed for his ride across the Delaware from NJ.. There had been a meeting there in Richmondtown w/Washington and other big shots.
A family on the hill there - had been there generation after generation since that day... Artifacts were still in the home - until the last of the family had hung herself in the stairway from the second floor.. All the home and possessions were taken down to Richmond town... Moving the home was a nightmare.
BANNERMAN'S was a treasure trove of Civil War items.. Francis spent his life with CW items for sure.. His son Jimmy and I were good friends. Jimmy had a disability and could not walk well. I helped him out a lot in the Summers. My family was in Greenwich Village. I lived on Staten island and spent Summer in the Village. Was fun.. Hudson Sporting Goods - down by the Bowery was another treasure trove of CW items. As a kid I bought a lot of it ! Was pennies back then. I still have cartridge boxes and Cap boxes from that time..Original metal boxes with minnie balls still in there..
During my 24 years in the US Military - retiring as SERGEANT MAJOR, I learned to never take too seriously what others say ---about "anything" ..unless they "were" there. Books ...are a good resource - but again..a lot of it is assumptions.
I had access to actual Government Records and used them frequently for ID of WW1 and WW2 items. Occasionally for CW items .. I spent most of my time with the sneaky shooters..... building MATCH and SNIPER Rifles for the NAVY and USMC ..and later for the US ARMY.. Sorry...but I have had "hands on " experience -- and am very hard headed - as required by ARMY REGS Being a SGM was no task for the weak minded... especially in a ghillie suit....
Later............
Taking a 93 year old retired NYC Detective on what may be his last Hunting trip.....
Be back on Monday -- this is Saturday...

DARN it....put the pics of the wrong Flintlock in...I'll dig out the correct pics.. Grandson is 14 - and too quick on the draw..

My grandson did not goof..he took the pics of the Flintlock I told him to - but it is the 1839 SPRINGFIELD..... The Harpers Ferry is in my son's house - over his fireplace... :-(

Frank - the 93 year old - cancelled out. He said he did not feel up to it. He is a WW2 NAVY Veteran - from Brooklyn, NY. He looked pretty weak when he was here Yesterday... Worries me.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

What's the story on the M-1864 Type Musket with the Mississippi patch box and brass fittings?
J.

 

[johan_steele]

What's the story on the M-1864 Type Musket with the Mississippi patch box and brass fittings?
J.

Bannerman butchery or someone played with parts to make a fantasy come true.

 

[top39]

What's the story on the M-1864 Type Musket with the Mississippi patch box and brass fittings?
J.

Nope...not from Bannerman...Bought it about 20 -- 25 years ago. I am here for 22 years ?? and....had it before we moved here... As far as I remember .. I bought it at the Great Western Gun Show in Pomona California... Came from the Apple Valley area.. A friend of mine "Ken" had it at the SHOW...(he is from Apple Valley) ... I thought it was neat -- so I bought it. It has an 1863 Springfield Lock on it ??

 

[johan_steele]

It's a conglomeration of parts; likely a mix of original and repro. M1841 patch box on an M1864 stock and what appears to be either an 1863 or 64 lock w/ band springs holding brass bands. Interesting piece but not original to the period. The kind of thing Bannerman and 1960's re-enactors trying to come up with something to carry made up.