Missouri secession

1stTennKy

Cadet
Joined
Dec 24, 2020
I recall reading that the Missouri legislature passed an ordinance of secession while meeting in the southwest corner of the state (Neosho maybe?) And there was some question about a quorum being present? I would like to hear more about this.
 

GwilymT

Sergeant Major
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Location
Pittsburgh
The government of Missouri initially rejected secession. After certain actions such as Lyons in St. Louis and the occupation of Jefferson Cit, the State Constitutional Convention which vacated the governor’s office, the exiled governor and secessionists set up a rump government in Neosho and the unionists set up a government in Jefferson City. The rump Neosho government past a secession ordinance and sent representatives to the rebel government. However, the newly recognized state government was still in existence in the capital and in regular relation with the Union. At no point did the secessionist government really exercise any governing control in the state.

There’s a lot most to it of course but that’s the gist of it. Calling @archieclement , he knows tons about Missouri. Welcome to CWT.
 

Grant's Tomb

Corporal
Joined
Apr 4, 2020
I had no idea that part of Missouri had voted to secede, considering how close to the border of Arkansas that town is in the southwestern corner of the state. That's where George Washington Carver went to school for a time after the war when he was a child and he was no longer a slave
 

Lusty Murfax

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Location
Northwest Missouri
The government of Missouri initially rejected secession. After certain actions such as Lyons in St. Louis and the occupation of Jefferson Cit, the State Constitutional Convention which vacated the governor’s office, the exiled governor and secessionists set up a rump government in Neosho and the unionists set up a government in Jefferson City. The rump Neosho government past a secession ordinance and sent representatives to the rebel government. However, the newly recognized state government was still in existence in the capital and in regular relation with the Union. At no point did the secessionist government really exercise any governing control in the state.

There’s a lot most to it of course but that’s the gist of it. Calling @archieclement , he knows tons about Missouri. Welcome to CWT.
After the Planter House meeting, which followed Camp Jackson Union military authorities immediately initiated military occupation of the State, invaded and took control of the State capitol and intervened in every aspect of civilian life. The State Legislature and Executive Branch evacuated the Capitol at Jefferson City and the Lincoln administration replaced elected officials with their loyal appointees. Much of the elected Legislators either returned to their homes or fled south with elements of the Missouri State Guard, which was the officially authorized Missouri State militia. After the military occupation began all official State actions were initiated by or entirely controlled by the Lincoln administration through their loyal appointees backed by the occupation troops.
 

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
I had no idea that part of Missouri had voted to secede, considering how close to the border of Arkansas that town is in the southwestern corner of the state. That's where George Washington Carver went to school for a time after the war when he was a child and he was no longer a slave
Missouri has a star in the flags of both the United States and the CSA.
 

GwilymT

Sergeant Major
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Location
Pittsburgh
After the Planter House meeting, which followed Camp Jackson Union military authorities immediately initiated military occupation of the State, invaded and took control of the State capitol and intervened in every aspect of civilian life. The State Legislature and Executive Branch evacuated the Capitol at Jefferson City and the Lincoln administration replaced elected officials with their loyal appointees. Much of the elected Legislators either returned to their homes or fled south with elements of the Missouri State Guard, which was the officially authorized Missouri State militia. After the military occupation began all official State actions were initiated by or entirely controlled by the Lincoln administration through their loyal appointees backed by the occupation troops.
Wasn’t this after the State Legislature already voted not to secede and vacated the governorship of their own accord as the governor was a hot head secessionist?

If I were trying to tell a story to fit my pre conceived beliefs, I couldn’t have written it better.
 

Lusty Murfax

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Location
Northwest Missouri
Wasn’t this after the State Legislature already voted not to secede and vacated the governorship of their own accord as the governor was a hot head secessionist?

If I were trying to tell a story to fit my pre conceived beliefs, I couldn’t have written it better.
Missouri held a Constitutional Convention before the Camp Jackson attack and the delegates voted to remain in the Union. Historians generally split the delegates evenly between unconditional unionists, conditional unionists and secessionists. The Convention was held after Lincoln's call for State militia troops from the northern States and those States not yet in rebellion. Again generally, the conditional unionists and secessionists were opposed to Missouri assisting Lincoln in his war against the Southern States. However, the State Legislature did not take up the secession question until after it had fled the Union invasion and takeover of the State Capitol. More to your point, why would the federal government invade and occupy a State not in rebellion with federal troops, militia regiments from other States and regiments of foreign born private militia? Speaking of "hotheads", you must have meant Capt. Lyon. Lyon was not elected by the people of Missouri, while Gov. Jackson was the sitting Governor.
 

GwilymT

Sergeant Major
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Location
Pittsburgh
Missouri held a Constitutional Convention before the Camp Jackson attack and the delegates voted to remain in the Union. Historians generally split the delegates evenly between unconditional unionists, conditional unionists and secessionists. The Convention was held after Lincoln's call for State militia troops from the northern States and those States not yet in rebellion. Again generally, the conditional unionists and secessionists were opposed to Missouri assisting Lincoln in his war against the Southern States. However, the State Legislature did not take up the secession question until after it had fled the Union invasion and takeover of the State Capitol. More to your point, why would the federal government invade and occupy a State not in rebellion with federal troops, militia regiments from other States and regiments of foreign born private militia? Speaking of "hotheads", you must have meant Capt. Lyon. Lyon was not elected by the people of Missouri, while Gov. Jackson was the sitting Governor.
They didn’t. A government cannot “invade” what is already under their jurisdiction. They can, however, put down rebellion and enforce the law in their jurisdiction.
 

Lusty Murfax

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Location
Northwest Missouri
They didn’t. A government cannot “invade” what is already under their jurisdiction. They can, however, put down rebellion and enforce the law in their jurisdiction.
If you believe what the federal government did to Missouri was not a military invasion, occupation and implementation of marshal law to a State not in rebellion, I don't think I can help you.
 
Missouri held a Constitutional Convention before the Camp Jackson attack and the delegates voted to remain in the Union. Historians generally split the delegates evenly between unconditional unionists, conditional unionists and secessionists. The Convention was held after Lincoln's call for State militia troops from the northern States and those States not yet in rebellion. Again generally, the conditional unionists and secessionists were opposed to Missouri assisting Lincoln in his war against the Southern States. However, the State Legislature did not take up the secession question until after it had fled the Union invasion and takeover of the State Capitol. More to your point, why would the federal government invade and occupy a State not in rebellion with federal troops, militia regiments from other States and regiments of foreign born private militia? Speaking of "hotheads", you must have meant Capt. Lyon. Lyon was not elected by the people of Missouri, while Gov. Jackson was the sitting Governor.

You're leaving a couple small details out. Governor Jackson sent pro-Confederate state militia and seized the U.S. arsenal in Liberty and then on the same day he told Lincoln to pound sand over his call for troops, the Governor requested from President Jefferson Davis cannons and ammunition to seize the U.S. arsenal in St. Louis. that held over 60,000 rifles and ammunition. The request was fulfilled by Davis three weeks later when he sent four cannon and ammunition to Jackson who moved them to his pro-Southern militia training camp on the edge of St. Louis. Two days later General Lyon decided not to wait for his men to be attacked so he launched his attack against Jackson's camp and the pro-Southern militia surrendered without firing a shot. Jackson's actions were far from that of a neutral.
 
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GwilymT

Sergeant Major
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Location
Pittsburgh
It may also be worth mentioning that far more Missourians fought for the Union than fought for the rebels. This coupled with the fact that the secesh Missouri government never exercised any control in the state, let alone the rebel government in Richmond, leads me to believe that by and large the people of Missouri were Union people and loyal to the United States. The wishes of modern rebel apologists not withstanding. Missouri wasn’t an occupied state but rather a state where a criminal rebellious minority of the population was subdued by the lawful authority of both the state and the federal government of which the state was a part.
 
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Lusty Murfax

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Location
Northwest Missouri
It may also be worth mentioning that far more Missourians fought for the Union than fought for the rebels. This coupled with the fact that the secesh Missouri government never exercised any control in the state, let alone the rebel government in Richmond, leads me to believe that by and large the people of Missouri were Union people and loyal to the United States. The wishes of modern rebel apologists not withstanding.
No, its totally irrelevant. We won, therefore we're right is your argument.
 

GwilymT

Sergeant Major
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Location
Pittsburgh
No, its totally irrelevant. We won, therefore we're right is your argument.
The United States won, not “we” vs “you” or “I”, these folks are long dead. The majority of the people in Missouri at the time, who supported the Union, won. Rebel apologists with a skewed sense of us vs them and a skewed sense of history lose.
 
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Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
@GwilymT, on the subject of occupation, it's all well and good to say the federal government cannot occupy what is already under its jurisdiction. However, if an out-of-state army arrived in your city, suspended civil law, closed and destroyed newspapers, commandeered goods and supplies, perhaps even closed your business just because someone with an old grudge implicated you as a trouble maker--all of which happened in my city in June of 1861--I don't think you would be glibly pointing out to your neighbors that this was not an occupation.

I believe it's true that more Missourians fought for the Union than for the Confederacy. (My CW ancestor enlisted in the union cavalry.) It is true that Jackson was a hot headed secessionist. It is true that Lyon was a hot-headed commander of volunteers. And it's true that much of the Missouri legislature during the war years was appointed rather than elected. I know that loyalists and pro-secessionists suffered alike in Missouri. I know that many of the Provost Marshals were corrupt and pocketed the bonds levied against those suspected of being disloyal. I know that many fence sitters were driven to the pro-rebellion side because of the abuses of the "non-occupying" out of state forces.

Missouri's Civil War history is particularly ugly, whether you are discussing secession, politics, slavery, martial law, militias, out-of-state troops, bushwhackers, jayhawkers, revenge, or combat.

Do not imply that I am a Confederate apologist. In my entire history with this discussion group, I have repeatedly stated that I'm thankful our nation wasn't torn asunder. If you must imply anything about me with regard to this discussion, call me a Missouri apologist. That would be accurate.

Now, back to the original topic. I'm glad Missouri didn't secede. I understand why some thought it should have.
 

GwilymT

Sergeant Major
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Location
Pittsburgh
@GwilymT, on the subject of occupation, it's all well and good to say the federal government cannot occupy what is already under its jurisdiction. However, if an out-of-state army arrived in your city, suspended civil law, closed and destroyed newspapers, commandeered goods and supplies, perhaps even closed your business just because someone with an old grudge implicated you as a trouble maker--all of which happened in my city in June of 1861--I don't think you would be glibly pointing out to your neighbors that this was not an occupation.

I believe it's true that more Missourians fought for the Union than for the Confederacy. (My CW ancestor enlisted in the union cavalry.) It is true that Jackson was a hot headed secessionist. It is true that Lyon was a hot-headed commander of volunteers. And it's true that much of the Missouri legislature during the war years was appointed rather than elected. I know that loyalists and pro-secessionists suffered alike in Missouri. I know that many of the Provost Marshals were corrupt and pocketed the bonds levied against those suspected of being disloyal. I know that many fence sitters were driven to the pro-rebellion side because of the abuses of the "non-occupying" out of state forces.

Missouri's Civil War history is particularly ugly, whether you are discussing secession, politics, slavery, martial law, militias, out-of-state troops, bushwhackers, jayhawkers, revenge, or combat.

Do not imply that I am a Confederate apologist. In my entire history with this discussion group, I have repeatedly stated that I'm thankful our nation wasn't torn asunder. If you must imply anything about me with regard to this discussion, call me a Missouri apologist. That would be accurate.

Now, back to the original topic. I'm glad Missouri didn't secede. I understand why some thought it should have.
I don’t recall implying anything about you. If my comments have offended you I apologize for the offense.
 

Borderruffian

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Location
Marshfield Missouri
It was a Rump Session of the legislature, meaning not all were present and the members present were allowed to cast votes for those not present. It was in Neosho and extra-legal. The Rump Session secesswas recognized only by the government of the state in exile and the Richmond Government.
 

Lusty Murfax

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Location
Northwest Missouri
It was a Rump Session of the legislature, meaning not all were present and the members present were allowed to cast votes for those not present. It was in Neosho and extra-legal. The Rump Session secesswas recognized only by the government of the state in exile and the Richmond Government.
Extra-legal? Probably. I'm still trying to figure how a few wealthy and powerful St. Louisans could privately raise and fund a foreign born militia, arm them with government weapons diverted from a federal arsenal, weapons which a U.S. Army General had already promised Missouri State elected officials were reserved for arming the Missouri State Guard (the only legally authorized militia in the State), place this foreign militia under the command of a low ranking Army officer snuck into town without the prior authorization of the military officer then in command of all Western forces and use this private militia to foment insurrection against the State of Missouri, force elected State officials to abandon and flee the Capitol and after all this replace Missouri's elected office holders with appointees personally loyal to President Lincoln without violating the laws and constitution of the State of Missouri. Without all of that, there likely never would have been and need for a "Rump Session" and secession vote by Missouri's elected Legislature in Neosho.
 
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