Discussion Missouri river

Borderruffian

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Marshfield Missouri
Perhaps, by following the MSM all the way down to the southwest corner of the state, Lyon outran his line of supply, which was at Rolla, a 100 miles away over a poor wagon road. He could've, perhaps should have withdrawn closer to Rolls and await for more supplies and troops. Perhaps a more prudent General would have done so. But there was no "stopping" or prudence in Lyon's character; he wanted to punish those Missourians who refused to bow to the authority of the Fed. Government. And loosing the battle of Wilson's Creek and the death of Lyon didn't change the fact that the Union controlled the MO river for the balance of the war with all of the consequences I listed in my original post.
Curtis established smaller supply " forts" along Tne Wire Road , I know one at Lebenon and one at Marshfield with others south of Springfield for his Pea Ridge Campaign.
 

Patrick H

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Mar 7, 2014
My friend @Booner mentioned the number of sunken steamboats along the course of the Missouri. Many of you know that they are still being found in current times. This map, compiled by the Missouri River Association, shows the stretch of river between Jefferson City and Kansas City. Keep in mind that there are well over 100 miles of river course below Jeff City, and there are MANY hundreds of miles above K.C., with wrecks all along the way. You can see that the famous Arabia was sunk near Parkville, Missouri. The Saluda disaster was the result of a boiler explosion just upstream from Lexington. Bodies and body parts were found all over Lexington! The Diana is still buried somewhere just above Rocheport, and a bend in the river (Diana Bend) and a large state wildlife area are named for her. The steamer Joe Kinney (sunk and raised near Boonville) was named for her owner, who is credited with developing the Missouri stern wheel type of steamer. He made, lost, and made again a number of fortunes, and his mansion still stands just across the river from Boonville. It's called Rivercene, and interested readers can find a Wiki article about it and a Facebook presence, too. The map is oriented with North on the right side, so it's a bit disorienting.
steamboats.jpg
 

Patrick H

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Joined
Mar 7, 2014
I'd like to add one more comment, indicative of the Missouri River's capricious nature. Upstream and across the river from Lexington, Missouri is the town of Camden. Camden was a river port until the early 1900s. During one of its frequent floods, the river cut a new channel across Camden bend, and significantly straightened its course at that point. Camden is now about eleven miles from the river! The former bend is now a shallow cut-off lake called Sunshine Lake. Interested readers can google search Lexington to find a map of the river, and then begin tracing the river upstream. You will see Sunshine Lake and a number of others as you search upstream. You will see one farther downstream--the Dalton cut-off. These giant cut-off lakes and hundreds of smaller cut-off sloughs (the result of islands and split channels) were part of the ever-changing river.
 
Joined
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Location
mo
Perhaps, by following the MSM all the way down to the southwest corner of the state, Lyon outran his line of supply, which was at Rolla, a 100 miles away over a poor wagon road. He could've, perhaps should have withdrawn closer to Rolls and await for more supplies and troops. Perhaps a more prudent General would have done so. But there was no "stopping" or prudence in Lyon's character; he wanted to punish those Missourians who refused to bow to the authority of the Fed. Government. And loosing the battle of Wilson's Creek and the death of Lyon didn't change the fact that the Union controlled the MO river for the balance of the war with all of the consequences I listed in my original post.
Yes certainly from Fremont securing northern Mo and the Hannibal St JO, then driving Price from Lexington and then MO, despite Lyons folly and defeat.

Would seem folly to me to not recognise after Boonville, Lyon is defeated at WC and Price returns to Mo River to win another battle at Lexington, both the Mo River and the state is actually then ultimately secured by Fremont.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
I'd like to add one more comment, indicative of the Missouri River's capricious nature. Upstream and across the river from Lexington, Missouri is the town of Camden. Camden was a river port until the early 1900s. During one of its frequent floods, the river cut a new channel across Camden bend, and significantly straightened its course at that point. Camden is now about eleven miles from the river! The former bend is now a shallow cut-off lake called Sunshine Lake. Interested readers can google search Lexington to find a map of the river, and then begin tracing the river upstream. You will see Sunshine Lake and a number of others as you search upstream. You will see one farther downstream--the Dalton cut-off. These giant cut-off lakes and hundreds of smaller cut-off sloughs (the result of islands and split channels) were part of the ever-changing river.
The Missouri was considered rather treacherous navigation, and once the river leaves the state would require increasingly shallower drafts. Why about every western overland trail originated in western Mo. First from the river but later the Hannibal St Joe also fed the trails starting points
 

Buckeye Bill

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To quote Josey Wales.
There's three kinds of sun in Kansas.
Sunshine
Sunflowers
And
Sons of B*(*h*(.
😆🤣😂

Great movie with great lines!

On a serious note, I toured the Lexington Battlefield last month. My wife and I drove down to the Missouri River where Union steamboats docked. I came across this trail marker and started to read stories by Lewis and Clark's regarding their expedition. The word "brutal" was used many times by both explorers about the Missouri River.

20210526_125627.jpg
 

Borderruffian

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Location
Marshfield Missouri
Yes certainly from Fremont securing northern Mo and the Hannibal St JO, then driving Price from Lexington and then MO, despite Lyons folly and defeat.

Would seem folly to me to not recognise after Boonville, Lyon is defeated at WC and Price returns to Mo River to win another battle at Lexington, both the Mo River and the state is actually then ultimately secured by Fremont.
And when Fremont was relieved off command Hunter did his level best to p**s away any real gains that the Path Finder had made in Missouri by essentially " forting " up his troops. Had Price relieved CS support for MSG we just don't know what would have happened.
 

atlantis

Sergeant Major
Joined
Nov 12, 2016
Thanks for all the input, didn't know that secessionist support was strongest in the center of the state. Do we know how long it took various forces to cross the river. A contested crossing
can be a hot affair.
 

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
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Thanks for all the input, didn't know that secessionist support was strongest in the center of the state. Do we know how long it took various forces to cross the river. A contested crossing
can be a hot affair.
This is a very good question, and I'm not able to answer it with any accuracy. As I mentioned earlier, Col. Joseph Porter eventually managed to cross a large force to the south bank. He was delayed for some length of time by Union cavalry activity and Militia activity before making his successful attempt. I don't recall how long the actual crossing took. It is described in a very interesting memoir titled "With Porter In North Missouri" which I believe you can now find online. Reprints are available, as well, and you will still find copies available in some libraries.

In the early autumn of 1864, Bill Anderson's large guerrilla band had just committed the massacre at the railroad depot in Centralia and fought the subsequent battle with a militia force which they virtually annihilated. He crossed his force to the south bank of the Missouri to meet up with Gen. Price in Boonville. This was a lengthy process which took hours, crossing a few men at a time in skiffs, and swimming their horses behind the boats. After each crossing, of course, the oarsmen had to cross back to pick up a few more men and horses. During all this distraction, their single captive from Centralia managed to quietly walk off into the woods and make a clean escape. He wrote an account of his entire ordeal, being singled out of the group about to be executed, then held captive, then moved to various locations, and finally escaping on foot. The account is titled "A Thrilling Record" and is available online in PDF form. It is well worth the time it takes to read, and will give you a good idea of the vicious nature of the war here in Missouri. By the way, this meeting with Price is the infamous occasion where Anderson's men rode into Boonville with human scalps decorating their bridles!
 

Borderruffian

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Location
Marshfield Missouri
This is a very good question, and I'm not able to answer it with any accuracy. As I mentioned earlier, Col. Joseph Porter eventually managed to cross a large force to the south bank. He was delayed for some length of time by Union cavalry activity and Militia activity before making his successful attempt. I don't recall how long the actual crossing took. It is described in a very interesting memoir titled "With Porter In North Missouri" which I believe you can now find online. Reprints are available, as well, and you will still find copies available in some libraries.

In the early autumn of 1864, Bill Anderson's large guerrilla band had just committed the massacre at the railroad depot in Centralia and fought the subsequent battle with a militia force which they virtually annihilated. He crossed his force to the south bank of the Missouri to meet up with Gen. Price in Boonville. This was a lengthy process which took hours, crossing a few men at a time in skiffs, and swimming their horses behind the boats. After each crossing, of course, the oarsmen had to cross back to pick up a few more men and horses. During all this distraction, their single captive from Centralia managed to quietly walk off into the woods and make a clean escape. He wrote an account of his entire ordeal, being singled out of the group about to be executed, then held captive, then moved to various locations, and finally escaping on foot. The account is titled "A Thrilling Record" and is available online in PDF form. It is well worth the time it takes to read, and will give you a good idea of the vicious nature of the war here in Missouri. By the way, this meeting with Price is the infamous occasion where Anderson's men rode into Boonville with human scalps decorating their bridles!
Camp Pope publishing sells " With Porter" at a very reasonable price under 20.00 I believe.20210621_104412.jpg
 
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Booner

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But does the air smell better in Missouri or Kansas?

Just asking for a Kansas Jayhawker....

Bill
I see @Patrick H has replied to your question, but Patrick is a polite man and it would out of character for him to say anything demeaning about our neighboring state of Kansas.

I'm not that kind of person, and here's the truth:
Eastern Kansas smells pretty good, but that's because it's close to Missouri. The further west you go into Kansas, the more it sells like the home-made fertilizer it's cattle produces, -- ya know what I mean?

If you have to drive through Western Kansas in the summer, it's an absolute necessity that your car has air conditioning as fast as possible. Don't worry about the police stopping you, they don't want to get out of their car either. There's a reason why the speed limit on I-70 is 75 mph. The Kansas powers that be know about the smell, and they want to get you out of the state as fast as possible so your won't file charges because of the air quality. It doesn't bother the folks that live there so much because their sinuses have all rotted out.

I once was driving through Western Kansas on I-70 in the summer. It was at night and the temperature was 105.' I was driving a rental car and the air conditioner broke down. I had to stop for gas at Oakley Kansas and nearly died from the smell coming off of the feed lots that surround that town. I passed out at the gas station for 45 minutes from the heat and that feed-lot smell while filling my car. When I finally came to and drove off, I could taste colors until I hit the Colorado state line.

I hope I've answered your question, and consider yourself warned.
 

Buckeye Bill

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I see @Patrick H has replied to your question, but Patrick is a polite man and it would out of character for him to say anything demeaning about our neighboring state of Kansas.

I'm not that kind of person, and here's the truth:
Eastern Kansas smells pretty good, but that's because it's close to Missouri. The further west you go into Kansas, the more it sells like the home-made fertilizer it's cattle produces, -- ya know what I mean?

If you have to drive through Western Kansas in the summer, it's an absolute necessity that your car has air conditioning as fast as possible. Don't worry about the police stopping you, they don't want to get out of their car either. There's a reason why the speed limit on I-70 is 75 mph. The Kansas powers that be know about the smell, and they want to get you out of the state as fast as possible so your won't file charges because of the air quality. It doesn't bother the folks that live there so much because their sinuses have all rotted out.

I once was driving through Western Kansas on I-70 in the summer. It was at night and the temperature was 105.' I was driving a rental car and the air conditioner broke down. I had to stop for gas at Oakley Kansas and nearly died from the smell coming off of the feed lots that surround that town. I passed out at the gas station for 45 minutes from the heat and that feed-lot smell while filling my car. When I finally came to and drove off, I could taste colors until I hit the Colorado state line.

I hope I've answered your question, and consider yourself warned.

Thanks, Big Dan!

Bill

IMG_20181029_204651.jpg
 

Booner

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There they are: Buckeye Bill and Big Dan, otherwise known as Bill and Booner. Both good friends of mine, and I guess that means we're all a bunch of reprobates. I enjoyed your post about the aromas of western Kansas, @Booner.
There's a reason my son and I call Oakley, KS. "Cow But(t), KS.
And Bill, before you post a picture of me again, warn me, Ok?
 

Lusty Murfax

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Location
Northwest Missouri
One visit to Lawrence to watch a Mizzou - ku football game (only went, because a family member was playing) was enough for me. We sat in the Mizzou player's family and friends section and the home fans showered us with invectives, as well as trash and an occasional urine balloon. Most of the comments they shouted as us reflected Missouri's status as a slave State, though most of our crowd was AA. I wondered how they felt being called 'slavers'.
 

Patrick H

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Mar 7, 2014
One visit to Lawrence to watch a Mizzou - ku football game (only went, because a family member was playing) was enough for me. We sat in the Mizzou player's family and friends section and the home fans showered us with invectives, as well as trash and an occasional urine balloon. Most of the comments they shouted as us reflected Missouri's status as a slave State, though most of our crowd was AA. I wondered how they felt being called 'slavers'.
The sports rivalry was one of the longest running in the history of American college athletics, until the U of Missouri joined the SEC. But the fan hate got pretty intense at times, as you have documented here. I have a friend who's a rabid Missouri Tiger fan. He once posted on a social media outlet that August 21 (the date of Quantrill's raid on Lawrence) was the anniversary of Missouri's most DECISIVE road victory over Kansas. That's pretty cold! I wonder how many college students today even understand how all this hate got started.

But tying this in to the original topic, I can say that the Missouri River did not stop Kansas Jayhawkers from raiding into the Missouri counties north of Independence. Of course, they were federally affiliated, so they had no problem getting ferries or steamers for their crossings. When Missouri guerrillas operated in small bands, I think they were usually able to move through their home and neighboring counties fairly easily. I honestly don't know how so many of them managed to cross in the summer of 1864, but they did. We know that Anderson referred to Rocheport, Missouri (on the north bank) as his capitol. We know that he raided Fayette, Centralia, and Danville, all on the North side. We know that Todd operated on both sides of the river through that summer, so they found a way somehow.

But if you stand on the bank or the bluff tops of the Missouri even today, you can clearly see that it continues to be a very formidable physical barrier. I have boated and canoed on it from the mouth of the Lamine River to Rocheport, and can attest that it has strong, tricky currents and it's fast. It is one of the swiftest large rivers on the planet.
 
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